I just come back from a week end in southern Germany. I should admit I decided the destination after this topic. I had never been there in the past and I knew only northern Germany and Berlin region before.
I went to Heidelberg and Frankfurt.
My impressions of Heidelberg were something like we could define as "central Europeaness". It actually looked like very like the image I have of Austria - and, cherry on the cake, it was covered by snow !
Although the cold, it was a very nice visit - and the occasion to taste real good saukrout and German beer - much better than the one we find in the French supermarkets...
Actually Heidelberg is a charming student city. It has a quite small historic center situated between two woody hills and surounded by a fortress. It has have what we could call a "Central European feel" surrounded by dark hilly forests, and a more modern side in the Rhein valley. The contrasts between both is sharp, since the rhein plain is very flat, industrial a quite much populated big cities (such as Mannheim only a few kilometers from there).
Frankfort, about 80km more at north is in what we could call central Germany. It is a very clean and modern city, with a skyscrappered city center. Quite nice, liverly and rich. It was about the image I had of the financial center of Germany, worth seen it, although we hadn't much time to see it more deeply.
Last edited by fab on Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
I totally agree that we tend to overlook parts of other countries that are very similar to our own, seeking out the "exotic" parts instead.
Though I have to say that I tend to base my view of other countries of their centres. Just as I consider Hessen + Thüringen +Rheinland + Franken to be the quintessential Germany, I tend to associate the typical France with Bourgogne + Centre, the typical Italy with Toscana + Umbria + Lazio, the typical Spain with Castilla etc.
Hello Frederik,
I think this vision is quite good. But concerning France, Centre+Bourgogne are to me quite clearly regions of northern france, I think me they represent the center of the northern half of France only, since the ambiance change quite rapidly at about Macon region (north of Lyon).
Also, what images do you associate with those regions? I should recognise Bourgogne doesn't have really big cities internationally widely known nor only one ambiance. I'm intrigued to see what would a Norwegian would see as tipically Burgondian... ;)
If you want we could play a game: you post me photos of landscapes, villages, towns or architecture that you would identify as tipically French, could you ?
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But it might be more correct if the centre of the country also is the cultural heartland of the country.
This is interesting, and I think correct in the case of countries where there is one central part where is concentred the population. but it is very difficult to define in other cases.
In the case of Germany, I think southern and central Germany can hardly being considered as the "heartland", Germany is historically a very decentralized country, with big cities in all parts of it... And its capital city, in the northern of it, from where the unity of the country was made starting from Prussian empire.
I recognise that southern Germany is a cultural hartland, but to me it is the cultural hartland of German-speaking countries, not especially of Germany, because at that time Germany didn't existed - Those regions could have been (and maybe would have fit better) with Austria than within German state.
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Following that line of thought, I tend to consider Lower Germany and Occitan France to be somewhat separate areas which to some degress have been "raped" of their cultural heritage and lost important links to their past, first and foremost their language.
"Lower Germany" means northern Germany right ? To me I think it was, at least politically, northern Germany which had integrated southern Germany later.
Concerning France I don't agree with the term "Occitan France", since it has not any signification, and never had any signification nor unity - Occitan wasn't a kingdom, a nation, nor any unified cultural area. It is just a neologism used to define a group of dialects of southern France spoken in very different (and sometimes rivals) regions, by opposition of the groups of dialects of the northern half. Basically the oil forms and oc forms are still very similar.
on another hand all southern France has not been of Oc dialects; Corsica, Pays Basque, Region Lyonnaise, Savoie are not.
And most of the most linguittically distinct regions of France (and culturally in general) are/were in northern France; such as Britanny, Alsace-Moselle or Flanders.
I really miss Heidelberg, but I don't imagine that I'll be able to go back there for a few years. I must've walked down that street about 20 times whilst I was there.
So, Fab, were did you stay in Heidelberg?
fab wrote:
"Lower Germany" means northern Germany right ? To me I think it was, at least politically, northern Germany which had integrated southern Germany later.
Yes, Lower Germany means Northern Germany. That may have been the case politically, although Standard German, which was imposed on Low Germany, was/is based on High German.
You know, fab, I've been to various parts of Germany and never noticed any of them being particularly different from the others!
Perhaps that is because as an American,
A) it was all a foreign country to me, and I lacked the familiarity with it to detect the different nuances, and
B) it's a small enough country that I certainly didn't notice the kinds of major changes that I associate with different parts of North America, i.e., going from desert to subtropical to temperate to subarctic regions (or even jungle down in central Mexico, although I have never been that far south).
The light is very nordic! Together with the architecture it could have been in Denmark or southern Norway. Anywhere where-ever you, according to Thomas Mann's Tonio Kröger "eat those salty, heavy meals which you can only digest in a northern climate" and where people are blond, friendly and stupid.
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It all looks rather aristocratical, lol.
Indeed, twas not for nothing that Aurich was the location of the Upstalsboom, the tree where the medieval Frisians would assemble from their seven sealands to debate and decide upon common matters, upholding their Frisian freedom and the old Germanic ţing. In Frisia, every man was a noble.
fab wrote:
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I'm intrigued to see what would a Norwegian would see as tipically Burgondian... ;)
The typical Norwegian wouldn't associate very much with Bourgogne, except wine, food and a red colour. I just mention it because I once went there and thought it looked very French. But I will try to find pictures of what I consider typical French.
But I have to say I have a bit different pictures of the hexagon Republic of France and the Toute ma vie je me suis fait une certaine idée de la France. ...- France. The last case doesn't include many pictures from southern France, because I've never been there + my impression is that it lacks a bit of that gentle, dewy, fresh softness (= perfume! ) that I associate France with. Which is rather odd, as the perfume capital of Grasse indeed lies in Provence!
But the other day I watched a TV programme about Cézanne and I just don't feel his strong, southern colours are very French. I tend to associate France much more with Monet and his colours.
I guess my impressions of southern France are rather wrong. Thus it's good you enlightened me on "Occiatn France". Are there no notions of a denied legacy, of a cultural rape down there then? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Actually I was in a motel between Heidelberg and Mannheim, I had a car so it wasn't easy to stay in the city center, and a bit late to find it.
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The light is very nordic! Together with the architecture it could have been in Denmark or southern Norway. Anywhere where-ever you, according to Thomas Mann's Tonio Kröger "eat those salty, heavy meals which you can only digest in a northern climate" and where people are blond, friendly and stupid.
Why did you say "stupid" ? the stereotype I have of scandinavians tend I tend draw them as smart, modern, clean, tall, blond, respectfull of the laws and of others.
These stereotypes apply to Germans also, which are seen as about the same - and are considered to be nordics -
Germany doesn't have a much different image than Denmark or Sweden, excepted that it is seen as more populated, industrial and powerfull.
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it was all a foreign country to me, and I lacked the familiarity with it to detect the different nuances
Generally, viewed from France most people are not aware of those differences either. Germany is mostly seen just as being a (the?) tipical northern European country most of the time, with not more nuances.
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it's a small enough country that I certainly didn't notice the kinds of major changes that I associate with different parts of North America, i.e., going from desert to subtropical to temperate to subarctic regions (or even jungle down in central Mexico, although I have never been that far south).
In Europe the differences between the countries are not that much linked with climate as it does in America, because Europe is much smaller, and so the climates, even between Sicily and Scandinavia are still considered to be temperate ones in both cases. The main differences are cultural - included linguistical - and also sometimes geographic, since we can change very quickly of relief, have peninsulas, inside sea, etc... and so have a lot of microclimates which can change the ambiance at only a few kilometers away.
What is incredible in Europe is that you can make only 100kms and cross changed three times the language and ambiance.
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The last case doesn't include many pictures from southern France, because I've never been there + my impression is that it lacks a bit of that gentle, dewy, fresh softness (= perfume! ) that I associate France with. Which is rather odd, as the perfume capital of Grasse indeed lies in Provence!
You're right, most perfumes are made from flower and aromatic plants, which is a tipical production of côte d'Azur, and especially Grasse region.
Grasse is often called the capital of perfumes, but actually is not a big city, but more like a big village up an hill a few kilometers in the inside land.
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But the other day I watched a TV programme about Cézanne and I just don't feel his strong, southern colours are very French. I tend to associate France much more with Monet and his colours.
Really? that's interesting. Actually southern France light has inspired most of te artists at that time, and suring the 20th century. A lot of artists were form there or had lived there - including Cezanne, Matisse, Derain, Braque, Picasso, Van Gogh, Gauguin, Matisse, Yves Klein, etc.
Of course the most known: Cézanne (to me the most important french painter of recent history, the one who had construct a bridge that would led to modern painting and abstraction)
but also Braque :
And more than this the "fauves", derain, Dufy, and of course Matisse with the oversaturated light by hard use of saturated colors are quite emblematic of transcription of summer light of Colioure.
and of course also the foreign painters such as picasso or Van Gogh get some of their most famous subjects in southern France.
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I guess my impressions of southern France are rather wrong. Thus it's good you enlightened me on "Occiatn France". Are there no notions of a denied legacy, of a cultural rape down there then?
No, excepted for very small minorities. Actually there is quite a big difference between the mediterranean side and the south-west regions which were part of the former languedoc region (more or less around Toulouse region). For some region it exist, especially in small towns of "midi-pyrennes" a tradition of refering to "occitania" there for some people for some historic/religious reasons (the opposition to the French kingdom during the Cathare times).
This is very different in other places of the so called "occitania". The Atlantic regions, Landes and Bordeaux regions doesn't generally link with it, and actually a big part of Bordeaux region has always being langue d'oil-speaking.
And concerning the south-east; the regions that surround the mediterranean I say that almost nobody would refer as being part of "occitania"- especially east of the Rhone - most people would have even absolutly no idea of what "occitan" would mean - The local traditional dialects are considered to be provençal (which is only one specific form of langue d'oc). Some parts such as Nice region also have its specific variants (Nissart). those dialect are almost not spoken anymore.
The mediterranean regions are among the most nationalists and french-proud, it has unfortunally traditionally among the highest rate of FN votes, while in Paris they are among the lowest.
By the way we shouldn't forget that the foundator of modern France was a Corsican...
The regions were the feeling of "cultural rape" may does exist in Corsica or Pays Basque - and more than this in northern France: especially in Britanny.
Last edited by fab on Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:28 am; edited 10 times in total
Why did you say "stupid" ? the stereotype I have of scandinavians tend I tend draw them as smart, modern, clean, tall, blond, respectfull of the laws and of others.
These stereotypes apply to Germans also, which are seen as about the same - and are considered to be nordics -
Germany doesn't have a much different image than Denmark or Sweden, excepted that it is seen as more populated, industrial and powerfull.
There is a difference between the traditional use of the word 'Nordic', and the idea of the 'Nordic Countries', which is essentially a modern geopolitical construct that does not include Germany. The second is how most people from within the 'Nordic Countries' tend to use the term, whilst many outsiders use it differently. For example, I was looking at the discussion page of the Wikipedia article about the Nordic Countries — some people from places like England and Germany (etc.) were upset that their countries weren't included, because they considered themselves to be ethnically 'Nordic' or something like that.
And as Fredrik will tell you — most Scandinavians would probably be horrified if you were to tell them that you thought that they were basically almost the same as the Germans.
And as Fredrik will tell you — most Scandinavians would probably be horrified if you were to tell them that you thought that they were basically almost the same as the Germans.
Yes, I know, but that is not my personal opinion (although after having visiting both recently the relation was clear - despite geographical differences), but generally how most people who don't know the question would think at first - even if some stereotypes that concern scandinavians are not put over Germans, such as design/zen spirit, calmness, wild nature, etc.
And as Fredrik will tell you — most Scandinavians would probably be horrified if you were to tell them that you thought that they were basically almost the same as the Germans.
...and if you go and tell the Scots that they are actually almost the same as the English, they will probably knock your teeth out without much hesitation _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
And as Fredrik will tell you — most Scandinavians would probably be horrified if you were to tell them that you thought that they were basically almost the same as the Germans.
Exactly!
Actually, the problem is that the term which is the basis of that concept is very hard to translate. The socio-cultural bloc formed by Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland is called Norden in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish. And "Norden" simply means "the North". Finnish also uses Pohjola = the North for this area. But the Icelandic term corresponds better with the English term: Norđurlöndin = the North lands. So although I can agree that many countries can be northern, only five countries are the Nordic countries, in my mind.
fab wrote:
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Why did you say "stupid" ? the stereotype I have of scandinavians tend I tend draw them as smart, modern, clean, tall, blond, respectfull of the laws and of others.
I said "stupid" because that's what Thomas Mann writes in Tonio Kröger, where he equates northernness with life and stupidity and southernness with death and genius. Anybody who is intrigued by the conflict between north and south and life and art should read Thomas Mann's Tonio Kröger, it's a masterwork!
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Germany is mostly seen just as being a (the?) tipical northern European country most of the time, with not more nuances.
Nice pics, fab, but this shocks me! This is your neighbour country, after all! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
And as Fredrik will tell you — most Scandinavians would probably be horrified if you were to tell them that you thought that they were basically almost the same as the Germans.
...and if you go and tell the Scots that they are actually almost the same as the English, they will probably knock your teeth out without much hesitation
LOL — yes! It seems to be the same with Canadians and Americans, and with New Zealanders and Australians. It almost seems as though the more similar you are to your more powerful neighbour, the more aggressively you will emphasise the differences.
Fredrik wrote:
Actually, the problem is that the term which is the basis of that concept is very hard to translate. The socio-cultural bloc formed by Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland is called Norden in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish. And "Norden" simply means "the North". Finnish also uses Pohjola = the North for this area. But the Icelandic term corresponds better with the English term: Norđurlöndin = the North lands. So although I can agree that many countries can be northern, only five countries are the Nordic countries, in my mind
That's right. For example, Scotland is definitely 'northern', but it is not a part of the Nordic Countries.
Fredrik wrote:
I said "stupid" because that's what Thomas Mann writes in Tonio Kröger, where he equates northernness with life and stupidity and southernness with death and genius. Anybody who is intrigued by the conflict between north and south and life and art should read Thomas Mann's Tonio Kröger, it's a masterwork!
Lol — there does seem to be a decline in high culture the further north you go in Europe generally, whilst Central Europe almost has the monopoly. I'm interested in classical music, but I'm afraid that I cannot immediately think of any famous Scandinavian, Finnish or Scottish composers (Gustav Holst doesn't count). And there are basically only two famous Scottish authors associated with the Romantic period — such a rarity that they have monuments and celebrations in honour of them all the time! I suppose it was all a bit isolated and out of the way up there, lol.
Do you associate the German language more with English or more with Norwegian? Or about the same?
good question, actually I don't know enough Norwegian (and German either) to make a clear idea.
I'd say about the same.
I know that linguists put scandinavian languages is their own sub-category, so I think it might have some reason - so it would mean that German has more links with English... but I'm not sure.
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And also 43m with England.
I forgot that one !! I don't know about the juridic status of a border situated below a sea !... it is a quite unusual situation !
Last edited by fab on Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:14 am Post subject:
Benjamin wrote:
I'm interested in classical music, but I'm afraid that I cannot immediately think of any famous Scandinavian, Finnish or Scottish composers (Gustav Holst doesn't count).
Edvard Grieg (Norway) and Jan Sibelius (Finland) are pretty famous. Or by "classical" did you mean the specifically classical era (Mozart, Haydn, etc.) of the vast amount of music that's commonly referred to as classical?
I'm interested in classical music, but I'm afraid that I cannot immediately think of any famous Scandinavian, Finnish or Scottish composers (Gustav Holst doesn't count).
Edvard Grieg (Norway) and Jan Sibelius (Finland) are pretty famous. Or by "classical" did you mean the specifically classical era (Mozart, Haydn, etc.) of the vast amount of music that's commonly referred to as classical?
I'd forgotten about Sibelius. Or rather, I knew about him, but didn't immediately remember that he was from Finland.
Among these, Germany is far to be the most similar... and its territory is in average much more northerner, it opens to the Baltic sea - its language seem for us very similar to yours... etc.
Everything is a question of point of view... What is funny is that for your point of view Germany seemed be seen as a almost southern country. That is hard to imagine for me.
I don't think that Fredrik or Benjamin intended to imply that. But most Germans probably wish that would be the case, since I bet there is a hidden longing for those exotic, sun-pampered and adventure-promising lands down in the south, no matter if it is in Southern Europe, South America, Africa or Asia... these are the places most people here are talking about when they are planning their next travel.
The Nordic countries are maybe just to similar to Germany to sense this longing _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
...and if you go and tell the Scots that they are actually almost the same as the English, they will probably knock your teeth out without much hesitation
What? I've always just thought of Scots as English people who talk funny ... well, funnier....
(Oh, where's Damian when I need him?! )
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LOL — yes! It seems to be the same with Canadians and Americans, and with New Zealanders and Australians. It almost seems as though the more similar you are to your more powerful neighbour, the more aggressively you will emphasise the differences.
It's true -- and deep down a Canadian's worst fear is that someone will find out that they're really just American Lite -- chilly little Yanks with a hockey obsession -- tears 'em up!
I don't think that Fredrik or Benjamin intended to imply that. But most Germans probably wish that would be the case, since I bet there is a hidden longing for those exotic, sun-pampered and adventure-promising lands down in the south, no matter if it is in Southern Europe, South America, Africa or Asia... these are the places most people here are talking about when they are planning their next travel.
The Nordic countries are maybe just to similar to Germany to sense this longing
That's right — here as well, most people go on holiday either to Southern Europe or further afield. I'm eccentric, so I'm going to Iceland for my 18th birthday, but that's not common. Germany seems to have become the new 'cool' place to go over the past year since the World Cup, and there were admittedly a lot of German tourists when I went to Scotland, but really, very few people here would say, 'hey, I'm going to Germany for my summer holiday this year!'
Having said that, I don't think of Germany as being particularly 'northern' really. Where currently I live, in the Southwest Midlands of England, is about level with Hamburg — that means that almost the whole of Germany is further south than me. And when I (probably) move to Scotland next year, I'll be level with Norway; the whole of Germany will be significantly to the south of where I live. When I was in München (Munich), I did not think, 'I'm in a Northern European city', although I did when I was in Frankfurt and Nürnberg.
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) that I associate France with. Which is rather odd, as the perfume capital of Grasse indeed lies in Provence!
I suppose it was all a bit isolated and out of the way up there, lol.
these are the places most people here are talking about when they are planning their next travel.
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