Germany seems to have become the new 'cool' place to go over the past year since the World Cup, and there were admittedly a lot of German tourists when I went to Scotland, but really, very few people here would say, 'hey, I'm going to Germany for my summer holiday this year!'
Lol, so did the image of Germany finally changed a bit in England just because of the World Cup?
I remember a school trip to England, and we visited a school there but we weren't allowed to attend History classes. I wonder why...
Benjamin wrote:
Having said that, I don't think of Germany as being particularly 'northern' really. Where currently I live, in the Southwest Midlands of England, is about level with Hamburg - that means that almost the whole of Germany is further south than me. And when I (probably) move to Scotland next year, I'll be level with Norway; the whole of Germany will be significantly to the south of where I live. When I was in München (Munich), I did not think, 'I'm in a Northern European city', although I did when I was in Frankfurt and Nürnberg.
Well, England is about the same height as about two third of the land mass of Germany, and where it is the ('at'?) most densly populated. And remember, England is comparatively narrow, espacially in the North, so the one third of Germany that stretches southwards makes no great difference, does it?
Benjamin wrote:
When I was in München (Munich), I did not think, 'I'm in a Northern European city', although I did when I was in Frankfurt and Nürnberg.
See, it's rather the culture that matters, not the degree of latitude you live in, if it only concerns few degrees. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
When I was in München (Munich), I did not think, 'I'm in a Northern European city', although I did when I was in Frankfurt and Nürnberg.
For me neither, I'll consider Munich to be a central European city in terms of geography : climate, architectural ambiance, etc. but since it's part of Germany I'll consider it northern european in a cultural point of view.
Actually my former colocataire was Austrian, I once asked her if she consider her country as northern European one she clearly said that "of course" she did, for cultural reasons even if she recognised that on a purely geographical point of view Austria is not Northern.
And when I (probably) move to Scotland next year, I'll be level with Norway
I believe you meant to say Sweden, since Scotland doesn't seem to be on the same latitude as Norway according to this map:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Europe_location_NOR.png _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
Lol, so did the image of Germany finally changed a bit in England just because of the World Cup?
Yes, actually. There was definitely a lot of Germanomania going on here over Christmas, especially in Birmingham, where a huge Christmas market came over from Frankfurt and occupied the whole of the main central square and more for almost the whole of December. I'd never seen so many people in that square before, but there were thousands and thousands of people crowding around eating Bratwurst and Sauerkraut, drinking German bear, buying lots of 'German' gifts and listening to German folk music. And in September, I remember arriving in the same square and finding hundreds of people sitting at tables drinking German beer and wine and eating pretzels, accompanied by German band music. If you'd told me that all that would be happening five years ago, I wouldn't have believed it.
Benjamin wrote:
Well, England is about the same height as about two third of the land mass of Germany, and where it is the ('at'?) most densly populated. And remember, England is comparatively narrow, espacially in the North, so the one third of Germany that stretches southwards makes no great difference, does it?
I'll just add that I don't consider where I live to be particularly 'northern' either. But I've just realised something — my mental map of Europe looks like this:
That's why I think of Scotland as level with southern Norway, and England being more level with Denmark. But it seems that the lines of latitude would not be horizontal on that map.
Icke wrote:
See, it's rather the culture that matters, not the degree of latitude you live in, if it only concerns few degrees.
But it seems that the lines of latitude would not be horizontal on that map.
The type of projections with curves latitude lines tend to give us wrong ideas about the positions of places. If comparing with a corrected projection we see that Scotland lies more or less at the level of Denmark and southern Sweden, but Norway still quite northerner.
As a whole the latitudes of England and Germany quite comparable, Germany being a bit more at south.
Last edited by fab on Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:26 am; edited 2 times in total
And I always think of Iceland as being more North American than European, since it lies off the coast of Greenland, which is definitely North American territory!
Fab — let us thank the Lord that there are no Welsh people on this forum!
why? I didn't get that joke...
Once an Irish friend told me that a Welshman is actually an Irishman who cannot swim, lol _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
Fab — let us thank the Lord that there are no Welsh people on this forum!
why? I didn't get that joke...
Once an Irish friend told me that a Welshman is actually an Irishman who cannot swim, lol
When Fab first posted his map, England and Wales together were shaded and just labeled as 'England'. He's now changed it, so that only England is shaded.
Uriel wrote:
And I always think of Iceland as being more North American than European, since it lies off the coast of Greenland, which is definitely North American territory!
I must admit that I can never quite accept Iceland as part of Europe either. It's essentially a large volcanic island created by the constructive plate margin between the North American Plate and the Eurasian Plate.
And according to an Icelandic lecturer at my university, Iceland is quite Americanized too. In 1941 the Americans "occupied" Iceland and stationed 40.000 men in a country with a population of only 120.000! (The "occupation" lasted untill 2006). It was the Americans who built the modern Icelandic infrastructure (most notably Keflavik airport) and threw the backward saga island into the modern world. My lecturer said in his childhood in the 1960s they had American TV, but no Icelandic channels! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Nice pics, fab, but this shocks me! This is your neighbour country, after all!
Yes, we have borders with Germany in Alsace/Lorraine at the north-east border, but Germany is one neighbour among 8 others...
our borders are also with :
- Spain - 650km of border
- Belgium - 620km
- Switzerland - 572km
- Italy - 515km
- Germany - 450km
- Luxembourg - 73km
- Andorra - 57km
- Monaco - 2km
and even...
- Brazil - 700km
- Surinam - 520km
Among these, Germany is far to be the most similar... and its territory is in average much more northerner, it opens to the Baltic sea - its language seem for us very similar to yours... etc.
Everything is a question of point of view... What is funny is that for your point of view Germany seemed be seen as a almost southern country. That is hard to imagine for me.
PS: don't forget my pictures !
Quote:
There is a difference between the traditional use of the word 'Nordic', and the idea of the 'Nordic Countries', which is essentially a modern geopolitical construct that does not include Germany
Usually, "Nordique" in french can means either:
- Scandinavian countries only
- All western European countries situated at north of France.
Quote:
For example, I was looking at the discussion page of the Wikipedia article about the Nordic Countries — some people from places like England and Germany (etc.) were upset that their countries weren't included, because they considered themselves to be ethnically 'Nordic' or something like that.
For what I've read on the net, it seems generally that it is the inverse, a lot of British people seem to reject deeply the idea that they might part of northern Europe (what they obviosly are on all points of view-even if not scandinavians).
fab, here are finally my idée de la France in pictures:
Toute ma vie, je me suis fait une certaine idée de la France. ...:
Cultured, nice stone villages with mossy houses and a very old smell, a little hilly, some forest, but lighter than the German forest, more deciduous, blossoming fruit orchards, not as deep colours as in Germany, more fresh and a Celtic legacy of slow-moving water:
And an urban ambience that is very urban, yet more medieval-feudal than mediterranean-antique:
_________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Thank you Frederik for your exemples. As it I can see more clearly the image you have in your mind. A quite tipical Northern French image.
Actually that's very interesting - I have understood that you've been only in Burgondy, so that the images you have seem to be fitting in that tipically north-eastern France image/landscapes. Those photos look also like the rural region that surround Paris (maybe the second picture is from there?)
What is interesting is that for most French people Burgondy is not a very important region because it is VERY rural - has few cities - quite few population, and we tend to know it very bad. Dijon, the most important city of Burgondy is seen as very "provincial" by big cities dewelers.
Usually (probably unfortunally, but maybe you know it better than me ) it is a region of transit more than a destination.
Quote:
a Celtic legacy of slow-moving water:
I'm not sure to see the link between slow water and Celts ? ... taht's curious !...
Quote:
And an urban ambience that is very urban, yet more medieval-feudal than mediterranean-antique
It is curious that you seem to consider dissociate mediterranean and "medevial" ambiances.
The tipically mediterranean villages are actually generally tipically of "medival" vernacular urban structure, and not the well-organised antic one.
that's interesting, I understand that you seem to imagine "medieval ambiance" as a tipical non-mediterranean thing... Benjamin once said a similar thing. (And half timbered housed are often associated with medival ambiance) - actually we can as much mediaval thing in southern/mediteranean regions.
Quite a tipical "medieval" ambiance of southern Europe in south-west france
Actually I alway found Spain, and especially Castilla (which means "land of castles!) as a quintessential medival ambiance land:
Last edited by fab on Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:15 am; edited 3 times in total
And according to an Icelandic lecturer at my university, Iceland is quite Americanized too. In 1941 the Americans "occupied" Iceland and stationed 40.000 men in a country with a population of only 120.000! (The "occupation" lasted untill 2006). It was the Americans who built the modern Icelandic infrastructure (most notably Keflavik airport) and threw the backward saga island into the modern world. My lecturer said in his childhood in the 1960s they had American TV, but no Icelandic channels!
I knew a kid who was stationed in Iceland for a year as a teenager. Then stationed in Kodiak, Alaska. And twice in New York (where I knew him -- both times). I had no idea they had shut down that base. but I often met kids who had been stationed in odd places -- Taiwan (that base is no longer there), Saudi Arabia (although American children are not allowed there after a certain age), Australia, England, Guam, Belgium (where one of my cousins was born), and even Turkey (my dad was almost stationed in Izmir once).
I think Europe has the lion's share of the most breathtaking scenery in the world. What a lucky continent! _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I'm not sure to see the link between slow water and Celts ? ... taht's curious !...
Of course this is highly subjective, but as you might know the Celts were rather pantheïstic and honoured various features of nature. As many European river names are of Celtic origin, I tend to associate rivers with Celts, not at least because of the can-you-wade-across-the-same-river-twice? paradox, which I feel is typically Celtic. I tend to associate Greco-Roman and Germanic culture with solid features, but Celtic culture with more flowing features. Thus I feel the French rivers to be a link to France's Gaulish past.
Quote:
Quote:
And an urban ambience that is very urban, yet more medieval-feudal than mediterranean-antique
It is curious that you seem to consider dissociate mediterranean and "medevial" ambiances.
The tipically mediterranean villages are actually generally tipically of "medival" vernacular urban structure, and not the well-organised antic one.
that's interesting, I understand that you seem to imagine "medieval ambiance" as a tipical non-mediterranean thing... Benjamin once said a similar thing. (And half timbered housed are often associated with medival ambiance) - actually we can as much mediaval thing in southern/mediteranean regions.
I guess this must seem strange to you as a southern European. But I presume we northern Europeans tend to associate the Middle Ages with northern and central Europe. Not because there wasn't a Middle Age in southern Europe, but because southern Europe has a more unbroken antique tradition, i.e. people continued to live as they always had, whereas the Middle Ages represented something new in northern Europe, namely urbanism.
loic:
I think the European landscape is beautiful because it's so cultured, it just breathes tradition. But surely there must be lots of that in Asia, whose cultures are so ancient compared to Europe's? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
think Europe has the lion's share of the most breathtaking scenery in the world. What a lucky continent!
I don't think that Europe is necessary more beautiful than other continents. There are plenty of places quite ugly too.
The nature is less exhuberant than in bigger continents, less extreme in one sense. if compared to the Scenery in the Americas, Europe could amost seem quite disappointing.
But what is really incredible, compared to other places of the world is the variety in a quite small and reduced place: variety of natural conditions, landscapes, and above all this an incerdible variety of cultures, found at only a few hundred (or dozen in some cases) of kilometers only.
The human and cultural legcy of the long history made it a lucky continent. But I think East Asia, the middle east or India, the Americas, (and other places) also have this kind of legacy of a long a varieted history.
Quote:
I tend to associate Greco-Roman and Germanic culture with solid features, but Celtic culture with more flowing features. Thus I feel the French rivers to be a link to France's Gaulish past
wao... very esoteric thinking !
Actually, what about German, Italian, English, Spanish rivers ? do you associate them also with the celtic past of those countries ?
Quote:
but because southern Europe has a more unbroken antique tradition, i.e. people continued to live as they always had,
I guess this must seem strange to you as a southern European. But I presume we northern Europeans tend to associate the Middle Ages with northern and central Europe. Not because there wasn't a Middle Age in southern Europe, but because southern Europe has a more unbroken antique tradition, i.e. people continued to live as they always had, whereas the Middle Ages represented something new in northern Europe, namely urbanism.
Well it is certainly true that Late Antiquity and Early Middle-Age blended everywhere in Southern Europe. The thin line is hard to tell, if there was one at all. But Middle-Ages was a very long period of dramatic changes in Southern Europe. Rome fell and only much later did new cities mushroom, as did Montpellier (Montpelhièr) from 986 on. Sicily, which was spared the heavy Romanisation process that Μεγάλη Ελλάς (Grande-Grèce, Magna Græcia) endured, ended as an Arab emirate before Roger de Hauteville (Ruggero D'Altavilla) & Robert Guiscard (Roberto D'Altavilla - il Guiscardo) took both regions, from the Arabs and the Byzantines respectively. Roman Northern-Africa (from Mauretania Tingitana up to Egypt through Africa Proconsularis), which obviously wasn't in Southern Europe geographically, was nonetheless lost to Roman Europe. Most of Iberia was taken by the Arabs and France's kings gradually invaded all Meridional principalities. New forms of urbanism emerged in the Duchy of Aquitaine around the 13th century : those new cities were called bastides and they swarmed across northern Aquitaine. Basically, the history of medieval Southern Europe is so complex that grouping together all regions from the Atlantic to the Black Sea is une vue de l'esprit. The Southern World was imposed so profound tranformations during the Middle-Ages that even an ad hoc forum would not suffice to discuss that topic !
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why? I didn't get that joke...
... taht's curious !... 
