Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:06 am Post subject:
I agree with Uriel (I feel so unoriginal, writing that, and I seem to write it so often!). But I don't see how the kid could learn your language well unless he could hear two people speaking, so as to understand how conversations work in that language (asking questions and replying, for example).
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:
Uriel wrote:
My Portuguese great-grandparents went the opposite route -- they never learned English at all, but their children and their grandchildren all grew up bilingual -- and that seems much more pleasant, like having the best of both worlds.
I know a family in Texas in which the father is born & raised in the US and speaks only English, the mother is from Mexico but has lived here a long time and speaks both English and Spanish fluently, and the mother's mother came to live with them when she was already pretty old and only speaks Spanish. The kids are fluent in both languages, and the grandmother understands English very well, but won't speak it. According to her daughter, it's not because she has any objection to English or hasn't learned English, but because she feels very self-conscious speaking it when she knows she doesn't speak it fluently and has a strong accent. Fortunately for her, at this point she doesn't really have to speak it.
and don't feel the kind of sense of personal history that Walker and Fredrik do toward their languages
I guess we can't help it. I just remembered what the last line of the Swedish national anthem says:
Ja, jag vill leva, jag vill dö i Norden = Yes, I wanna live, I wanna die in the Nordic countries.
It's very interesting out there in the big world, but oh so scary, so we wanna keep our retreat options open! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
4,6 million people in Norway. 40.000 Samis, since you seem to like the ethnic numbers.
But in this context the key number is 20 million people in Scandinavia, that is 20 million people I can communicate naturally with and feel at home with. The foreign world doesn't start untill the Danish-German border.
If one of my parents spoke Danish or Swedish I would probably only have thought of it in the terms of them having a very strange dialect, not as speaking a foreign language. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Because the regions are very separated: governements, schools, language etc.. completly apart.
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The foreign world doesn't start untill the Danish-German border.
LOL !!
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If one of my parents spoke Danish or Swedish I would probably only have thought of it in the terms of them having a very strange dialect, not as speaking a foreign language.
It seem similar with the situation for us with France and Switzerland: they are only half foreigner
I agree with Uriel (I feel so unoriginal, writing that, and I seem to write it so often!). But I don't see how the kid could learn your language well unless he could hear two people speaking, so as to understand how conversations work in that language (asking questions and replying, for example).
Hey -- great minds think alike!
My mom always wanted my dad to teach me Portuguese, but he refused, on the grounds of what you just said -- he had no one else to talk to, so he didn't think it would work. Had we lived in Massachusetts it would have been different -- more like here, where there are ample opportunities to be around both languages all the time, and hear casual conversations in each.
Man, these Scandinavians are so much more provincial than I would have thought! Guess I got too used to moving around all the time as a kid to ever put down roots like that! _________________ An apple a day....
Man, these Scandinavians are so much more provincial than I would have thought! Guess I got too used to moving around all the time as a kid to ever put down roots like that!
But I guess you found an English-speaking expatriate environment wherever you moved to, or?
Actually, I think you would be surprised by how many Scandinavians who live outside of Scandinavia, mainly for job reasons. (E.g. my great grandmother worked as a maid in New York for some time and my aunt's brother currently lives in France with his family. In Moscow I met a couple from my home province who had been living on Sakhalin in the Russian Far East for several years, working in the oil business. And another aunt's cousins are missonaries in Mali.) But it's not just the language thing, it's the way Scandinavia is the only really safe place in the world. I, like many others wouldn't mind living abroad, but would want to be able to return to Scandinavia, because in the end, the rest of the world from Britain to Bangladesh is a barbarian place, at least from a Scandinavian perspective! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
But it's not just the language thing, it's the way Scandinavia is the only really safe place in the world. I, like many others wouldn't mind living abroad, but would want to be able to return to Scandinavia, because in the end, the rest of the world from Britain to Bangladesh is a barbarian place, at least from a Scandinavian perspective!
lol, Fredrik. Don’t a lot of people think of their „Heimatland“ as being the safest place to live to some degree (countries at war excluded)? That is just the place that you can call ‚home‘ – the place where you were born and raised is often the place where you want to die.
I also wouldn’t mind to live in another country for a time, but then I would always consider the opportunity to return home again! _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
But I guess you found an English-speaking expatriate environment wherever you moved to, or?
I don't think only native English speakers gravitate towards an English-speaking neighbourhood when they settle down overseas. I'd also say that many second language English speakers do the same when they become expatriates.
This is based on my observation that all the French, German, British, Australian and American expatriate communities here have never really bothered to learn an indigeneous tongue. English, they'd dismiss airily, would suffice.
Or if they do make an abortive attempt to learn a native language like my former French master did, their efforts are usually short-lived and transient. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Icke:
Yes, I guess it's natural that people look upon their Heimatland that way. (BTW Madonna's song La Isla Bonita" suddenly sprang to my mind here! )
But in the case of Scandinavia, it's not just the linguistical and cultural safety, but the fact that we know that our countries have the highest general standards of living and the lowest crime rates etc. etc. In fact, Scandinavia serves as an equivalent of Helm's Deep from LOTR in our minds, I would say; the last fortress that never can fall. Once you cross the Danish-German border you're in the big world where anything can happen: wars, revolutions, natural disasters etc. and where things happen on an inhuman scale, while we know from experience that in Scandinavia even wars are fought on a human scale.
But hey, this might be very widespread in other nations too, or? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:39 am Post subject:
Icke wrote:
Don’t a lot of people think of their „Heimatland“ as being the safest place to live to some degree (countries at war excluded)? That is just the place that you can call ‚home‘ – the place where you were born and raised is often the place where you want to die.
Well, I don't consider the US to be the safest place to live, but it is at least the place I'm used to living in. After seeing the documentary Jesus Camp, though, I'm worried that the US might really become too unsafe for me.
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I also wouldn’t mind to live in another country for a time, but then I would always consider the opportunity to return home again!
I don't actually know how I'd feel about returning to the US once I'd lived somewhere else, because it's never happened. The longest I was ever in one place outside of the US was the 6 weeks I spent in Russia in 1990. I definitely wanted to return to the US after that, but maybe if I lived in a place that shared many of the qualities I love about San Francisco, I'd be happy enough living there.
I have to say that I like the US the best out of all the places I've lived, but of course, I'm biased -- it's my home.
I have had the experience of viewing the US as a foreign country that I had to assimilate into -- largely against my wishes -- and also of coming back to it after a good chunk of time abroad. And coming back was a relative term as well -- after high school in Japan, I "came back" to a part of it I had never lived in before: California. (I had previously spent 10 years in Virginia and New York -- 3,000 miles away.)
I don't like every part of it -- there are cultural areas I would rather not live in. But that's the beauty of the US -- it's so huge and varied, both socially and geographically, that it seems like you can always find some part of it that agrees with your particular temperament and inclinations.
As for being safe -- well, hell, we all know it's not safe! That was never part of my criteria, I guess. But then, safety is a relative thing -- I think of unsafe as say, parts of Compton or NYC. But I don't expect a zero crime rate or no risk at all from the places where I live.
As for living in English-speaking "ghettos" abroad -- well, I was an army brat and we were stationed on army bases. So contact with other Americans was always part and parcel of the deal. But my parents did it both ways -- in Europe, they tended to live off-base in the community, and immerse themselves more in the main society. It was easy to do.
In Japan, it was not as easy to do. European society, customs, and bathroom fixtures approximate American ones far more closely, I'm afraid! In Japan, there was no fitting in physically, of course, the culture is drastically different, and living spaces and standards were different as well. Not better or worse -- just different. And it was heinously expensive to live "on the economy" there -- many people simply couldn't afford it -- not when base housing was free (if you qualified).
I did know people who did live off-base in Japan, and I think it is unfair to say that Americans don't take an interest in other cultures. After all, a huge percentage of the Americans stationed there had Japanese wives (or Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Thai, Vietnamese -- we were a little Asian smorgasbord, and well over half of my schoolmates at Zama were half American, half Asian), and their houses -- on base or off -- usually reflected that dual nationality in decor, in the food served every night, in things like taking off the shoes upon entering. And it's pretty unlikely that they managed to date and marry a foreign national without picking up any of the language, either. It was quite common for servicemembers to try to extend their assignments in country -- or at least in a particular "theater" (Pacific or European) in deference to their partners. Not always possible -- Uncle Sam does with you what he will -- but I knew plenty of people who had spent decades on the Pacific circuit, or like my dad, tried every chance they could to apply for jobs at European bases. (My dad married a European as well, so there's another example.) _________________ An apple a day....
Well, I don't consider the US to be the safest place to live, but it is at least the place I'm used to living in. After seeing the documentary Jesus Camp, though, I'm worried that the US might really become too unsafe for me.
Lol, I read an article about this documentary quite recently....very scary indeed!
I agree that there seems to be no 'real' safe place, actually. But apart from that, the word 'safe' is also often equated with familiarity.
Deborah wrote:
I don't actually know how I'd feel about returning to the US once I'd lived somewhere else, because it's never happened. The longest I was ever in one place outside of the US was the 6 weeks I spent in Russia in 1990. I definitely wanted to return to the US after that, but maybe if I lived in a place that shared many of the qualities I love about San Francisco, I'd be happy enough living there.
Well, I've also never lived abroad for a very, very long time, only in Ireland for a few months. This country actually shares a lot of cultural similiarities with Germany, and the Irish are a very friendly bunch of guys, that's why I never really felt foreign there. In fact, I absolutely enjoyed it, but still there was something I really missed. I guess I would never turn my back on my closest friends and my family. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject:
Icke wrote:
Deborah wrote:
Well, I don't consider the US to be the safest place to live, but it is at least the place I'm used to living in. After seeing the documentary Jesus Camp, though, I'm worried that the US might really become too unsafe for me.
Lol, I read an article about this documentary quite recently....very scary indeed!
As my roommate commented, it would be hilarious if it were a satire. Unfortunately, it isn't.
Actually, that's really unusual. I've never heard of a part of Britain that doesn't say 'you're welcome'. In my part of Britain, 'you're welcome' is common.
But you're from the West Country, Shouga, aren't you, just like the people who brought English to America? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
You mean those foreigners who sound almost like us? Creepy.
I remember being spellbound by some silly documentary on TV that featured an interview with some guy from the west country -- spellbound because he almost sounded "normal"! _________________ An apple a day....
You mean those foreigners who sound almost like us? Creepy.
I remember being spellbound by some silly documentary on TV that featured an interview with some guy from the west country -- spellbound because he almost sounded "normal"!
I thought people from the West Country spoke a heavily Devon/Cornish influenced English, that was difficult to understand for Americans? Is this not so? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject:
Porthos wrote:
Uriel wrote:
You mean those foreigners who sound almost like us? Creepy.
I remember being spellbound by some silly documentary on TV that featured an interview with some guy from the west country -- spellbound because he almost sounded "normal"!
I thought people from the West Country spoke a heavily Devon/Cornish influenced English, that was difficult to understand for Americans? Is this not so?
In fact, the speech from that area has some features (including the rhotic R) that distinguish the General American accent from [whatever the accepted standard British accent is called].
You mean those foreigners who sound almost like us? Creepy.
I remember being spellbound by some silly documentary on TV that featured an interview with some guy from the west country -- spellbound because he almost sounded "normal"!
I thought people from the West Country spoke a heavily Devon/Cornish influenced English, that was difficult to understand for Americans? Is this not so?
We don't all speak Devonshire/Cornish accents in the West Country Thinking about it, it's mostly 'older people' who have these accents - I hardly know any young person who speaks in a Devonshire accent.
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Hey -- great minds think alike!
