Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:28 am Post subject:
Shouga wrote:
We don't all speak Devonshire/Cornish accents in the West Country Thinking about it, it's mostly 'older people' who have these accents - I hardly know any young person who speaks in a Devonshire accent.
Does that mean that young people don't use the rhotic R anymore?
West Country's supposed to sound like Sam's accent in LOTR -- sort of semi-American with oi's where our long I's are. _________________ An apple a day....
In Icelandic: Hringadróttin
In Latin: Dominus Anulorum
In Gaelic: Tighearna nam Fainne
Get it? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
We don't all speak Devonshire/Cornish accents in the West Country Thinking about it, it's mostly 'older people' who have these accents - I hardly know any young person who speaks in a Devonshire accent.
Does that mean that young people don't use the rhotic R anymore?
Well, I wasn't quite sure what the Rhotic R was so I got Benjamin to pronounce it for me (and I must say, he gives very good examples of American and Scottish accents! ), and I'm pretty sure that young people *don't* use the rhotic R. Unless they speak with a Devonshire accent - which I think is actually quite rare nowadays... I don't remember the last time I heard a person of my age with a Devonshire accent.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:51 am Post subject:
Shouga wrote:
Well, I wasn't quite sure what the Rhotic R was so I got Benjamin to pronounce it for me (and I must say, he gives very good examples of American and Scottish accents! ), and I'm pretty sure that young people *don't* use the rhotic R.
I'd love to hear Benjamin's rendition of an American accent! Was it General American?
Well, I wasn't quite sure what the Rhotic R was so I got Benjamin to pronounce it for me (and I must say, he gives very good examples of American and Scottish accents! ), and I'm pretty sure that young people *don't* use the rhotic R.
I'd love to hear Benjamin's rendition of an American accent! Was it General American?
I'm not really sure, I don't know anything about dialects. Ask him to record a clip!
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish.
I think it might be a Nordic thing. Deep in our hearts we are convinced that no place matches the Nordic countries and we want to give our children the opportunity to return to that safe haven if everything around us collapses.
That is my instinctal feeling too, but objectively I agree with Benjamin, that it is a bit selfish and evil to more or less give your children the feeling that "home" is somewhere else. I for one am grateful that the "language of the heart" of both my parents, the one they told me bedside stories in, is the native dialect of my home province.
It might put your kids in a situation where they have to deal with some identity issues, but which kid doesn't find him/herself facing just those sorts of issues? In the long run it might just be better for them since they'd be likely to get a wider perspective on things than they'd otherwise get.
What about language then? - which I believe was what I was talking about from the beginning. Wouldn't you want your children to be able to speak Norwegian? To be bilingual? And would they not appreciate it?
Deborah wrote:
But I don't see how the kid could learn your language well unless he could hear two people speaking, so as to understand how conversations work in that language (asking questions and replying, for example).
I thought it was interesting the way this thread morphed into code-switching.
I'm not sure if this fits into the conversation, or whether I should just make a new one, but I did want to ask that since most of you are "linguistically inclined", what role that played in your everyday relationships.
For example, I always let it be known that I am interested in languages and would invite anyone to speak Italian with me, should they desire to. Spanish and French too, as well as other languages, though I take more the role of the "learner" there.
I also wanted to ask what those of you who speak another language plan to do when you have children. Perhaps I am a little different since my husband is an Italian national and his family still lives in Italy, but I think it is very important that they know both Italian and English. As we plan to live in the US, I want to use a method called minority language at home (ml@home) in which we would speak only Italian to the kids. They will learn English outside of the house. It would be the other way around has we decided to live in Italy - we'd speak English at home. If we live in a country where the majority language is not English or Italian, we'd choose another method called OPOL (one parent, one language) in which we'd each speak our native language to the children. What do you think?
You know, when I was little, and we lived in Germany, my father spoke no German but my mother spoke it fluently (having been stationed there since her teens), and she spoke both German and English to me at home. We lived off-base, "on the economy" in military-speak, and so I of course spoke German with my peers -- the other kids in the neighborhood, their parents, at my kindergarten, etc. My mother says that I spoke German better than I spoke English, and would frequently ask her to translate words for me!
When I moved to the US at the age of five, however, I quite speaking German cold turkey. I just refused. I guess at that age you want to fit in, and I lost it ALL within a year or two. German was not spoken in Virginia, so there was no need for me to maintain it, and no one for me to talk to. My mother can still rattle it off when she feels like, but not me -- I'm lucky if I can jar a word or two loose from the unused recesses of my brain. No sentences, no verbs -- only a few nouns seem to have survived, although I'm sure it's all locked up in there somewhere.
A daughter of some friends of my parents had roughly the same experience I did, except that when they moved back to the US, her parents enrolled her in a German after-school program, and when I met her again years later (we were babies together in Germany), she was proud of the fact that she still spoke it. By then I was old enough to regret that I couldn't. (I might have been 9 or so?)
My dad had a similar situation growing up -- he was second-generation American, but he was largely brought up by his immigrant grandparents who spoke no English, and so he spoke Portuguese almost exclusively until he was old enough to go to school (same age as I was when I switched). However, being that he lived in an environment where Portuguese was still spoken at home and in the wider community, he remained bilingual well into adulthood, and it is only now, after decades of disuse, that he has forgotten his Portuguese.
My mother always wanted him to teach me Portuguese, but he refused, saying it would be impossible since he had no one else to talk to.
Here in NM, of course, Spanish is quite common, and people switch back and forth all the time depending on who they are talking to, and may have an level of proficiency from can-order-a-taco to fully fluent, and so it's commonly retained. I have run into a few people with interesting stories to tell about language, though. One of my coworkers is from Mexico, and married an American. She speaks okay English --not perfect, but good enought to converse freely. She tells me her oldest son reached a point where he refused to speak Spanish and would pretend not to understand it either. I don't think they lived in NM at the time, so I assume it was a deal like mine, where he wanted to fit in, and Spanish just wasn't a part of that for him. I also have another coworker from California who is obviously of Mexican descent, speaks fluent Spanish, and in fact plans to retire in Mexico, where he has travelled extensively -- and yet he tells me he only learned Spanish at the age of 14! His mother was white, and it wasn't spoken in his household -- he picked it up later.
So I think there is no surefire method that will work for everyone when it comes to teaching children a language. Some of it will depend on what the kid wants, and some of it will depend on other factors -- but just try whatever feels right, and adjust as needed. _________________ An apple a day....
You make very good points, Uriel, ones I too have thought of when thinking of ways to ensure my children speak both. I think all children get to a point where they want to fit in. Since my childbearing years are going to be approaching somewhat soon (probably in the next two years) I've joined a mailing list for parents who are trying to teach their children one or more languages.
Many things they emphasize:
- You should not force the child to speak the foreign language (aka ml, meaning minority language, whatever language is not spoken by the majority) - rather encourage the child and be persistent in your use of ml only.
- Try to find as many other speakers of ml as you can to interact with your child
- Take frequent and/or extended trips to a an ml country
Other things I have pondered - in some countries speaking a certain foreign language is seen as better than in others. For example speaking English in Italy is seen as advantageous whereas speaking Italian in the US is probably not very encouraged. Spanish might be better here in the good ole' US of A. I wonder if I'm doing the future kids a disservice in the language department by living her, but the economy in Italy SUCKS. Not that its great here, but certainly better.
I also completely understand what you mean about the differing language proficiency of different people. I have always been told that I have certain knack for languages. I think I have a musical ear and can easily memorize patterns - for example I invariably learn all the popular songs on the radio whether I like them or not. My mother is the same way.
My husband is completely different and has a hard enough time with Italian and English. He doesn't code-switch easily like I do. It seems to me that he needs to complete the entire thought in one language, and will have a hard time quickly switching between English and Italian in his thought, though he can understand me when I use both in my sentences. He's been in the US for almost a decade now and his Italian has suffered markedly. Not that it was ever that great (language was never his strong point), but he has taken on a mixed accent - both Italians and Americans think he is foreign. He is now the master of neither language - it's embarrassing, but I've had to help him in both languages several times :(
His Italian is still far better than mine, but he needs time to get used to it again. In the beginning he forgets many simple words that he asks me in English. After about two weeks in an all-Italian environment though, he's usually completely fluent in Italian - and that's when I have to help him switch back to English. It's funny, I can imagine ever forgetting a language as quickly as he seems to and really I can't imagine ever forgetting English, but I'd never say never.
It's funny how people can forget their language. I once saw an interview with Dolph Lundgren, and it was as if he'd half-forgotten how to speak Swedish. You might be thinking: "yeah, Dolph Lundgren...", but don't be deceived; the guy has a Master's degree in chemical engineering, so he's obviously a smart guy.
Tiffany, you're doing what's right in planning to teach your children both languages. That's what I would do in your situation.
It's funny how people can forget their language. I once saw an interview with Dolph Lundgren, and it was as if he'd half-forgotten how to speak Swedish. You might be thinking: "yeah, Dolph Lundgren...", but don't be deceived; the guy has a Master's degree in chemical engineering, so he's obviously a smart guy.
My cousins' great-uncle went to Germany with the (British) army when he was about 16, and could speak no German at the time. For one reason or another, he ended up staying in Germany, and has effectively become German. Although he can still speak English, it is not as good as his German — he speaks English with a German accent and generally sounds like a non-native speaker who isn't completely fluent.
It's funny how people can forget their language. I once saw an interview with Dolph Lundgren, and it was as if he'd half-forgotten how to speak Swedish. You might be thinking: "yeah, Dolph Lundgren...", but don't be deceived; the guy has a Master's degree in chemical engineering, so he's obviously a smart guy.
My cousins' great-uncle went to Germany with the (British) army when he was about 16, and could speak no German at the time. For one reason or another, he ended up staying in Germany, and has effectively become German. Although he can still speak English, it is not as good as his German — he speaks English with a German accent and generally sounds like a non-native speaker who isn't completely fluent.
I think each case is different. My neighbour who left Poland for the US at the age of 10, upon returning to Poland 10 years later (in 1990) could not speak a single word in Polish. At first I thought he'd pretended not to remember Polish but he actually hadn't. On the other hand, I know a guy from London who was born in England from Polish parents who stayed there after WWII and he speaks perfect Polish despite the fact he was in Poland only twice or maybe three times. He speaks also English like a native speaker, whom he really is, but I need to mention it since many Poles in Polish enclaves in the US of UK speak perfect Polish but no English at all.
It's funny how people can forget their language. I once saw an interview with Dolph Lundgren, and it was as if he'd half-forgotten how to speak Swedish. You might be thinking: "yeah, Dolph Lundgren...", but don't be deceived; the guy has a Master's degree in chemical engineering, so he's obviously a smart guy.
My cousins' great-uncle went to Germany with the (British) army when he was about 16, and could speak no German at the time. For one reason or another, he ended up staying in Germany, and has effectively become German. Although he can still speak English, it is not as good as his German — he speaks English with a German accent and generally sounds like a non-native speaker who isn't completely fluent.
I think each case is different. My neighbour who left Poland for the US at the age of 10, upon returning to Poland 10 years later (in 1990) could not speak a single word in Polish. At first I thought he'd pretended not to remember Polish but he actually hadn't. On the other hand, I know a guy from London who was born in England from Polish parents who stayed there after WWII and he speaks perfect Polish despite the fact he was in Poland only twice or maybe three times. He speaks also English like a native speaker, whom he really is, but I need to mention it since many Poles in Polish enclaves in the US of UK speak perfect Polish but no English at all.
That reminds me of things here. In my own family's case, my maternal grandmother was natively bilingual in both English and Polish, and was schooled through high school solely in Polish, but today she speaks no Polish at all, and for quite a while has not been able to read letters sent by relatives in Poland in Polish. Of course, then, my grandma was born here in the US, and has never set foot in Poland at all.
At the same time, I have been recently shocked to find out that the extinction of Polish here in the Upper Midwest is rather, well, exaggerated. I had assumed that Polish must be practically dead here in the Upper Midwest today outside of a few very old people, considering that German was practically completely erased by English here, and German was the "older" immigrant language with the largest native-speaker population and largest social infrastructure here historically. I had never heard of anyone born here speaking Polish in decades, despite reports of some Catholic churches holding masses in Polish and sighting both garbage cans and newspapers with writing in Polish... Yet apparently Polish is still quite a living language in parts of the Chicago area, with people at least as young as 30 still speaking it today. My sister (who's 21 years old) just moved into an apartment in Chicago, and the recording on their answering machine was in both English and Polish, and the people managing the place spoke Polish despite not being too much older than her... (And according to my parents, who helped her move in there, people still definitely speak it down there in general, even though I have never heard anyone ever speak it here who wasn't born in Poland...)
Just going to the topic of French influence in English, French was the language of government in England for centuries.
Another snippet of information - in looking at family history sources in London I came across records of naturalisation and denization (some subtle difference) going back to the 16th century, which showed a good deal deal of immigration from France even so long after the Norman Conquest period (1066 et al). (Not to say my family records go back so far.)
Incidentally, it is curious to note that even then there were 'ethnic English' applying for English citizenship because born on the continent: the idea of a nationality based on soil as opposed to blood may have been long-established in England.
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Thinking about it, it's mostly 'older people' who have these accents - I hardly know 
