I disagree. When code switching becomes an ingrained habit, the speaker would find himself in a position where he becomes incapable of expressing himself properly in a single language. Over time, this hybrid would evolve into a creole that enjoys little currency outside his immediate circle.
It is not a question of snobbery but of respecting the language. Watching and understanding a TV programme in a foreign language is not akin to complete mastery over the language. I should know very well - I am able to understand Cantonese programmes perfectly but I am just not up to the mark when it comes to speaking it.
Conversing at length in Spanish doesn't suggest anything. Sorry, but I am sometimes rather scornful of a person's language abilities unless he is really very good in it.
But you don't live here. You are projecting your own prejudices onto people whose real abilities you have no way to assess, and you basically don't want to hear anything I just said -- that they speak both languages perfectly well.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:57 am Post subject:
loic wrote:
It is not a question of snobbery but of respecting the language. Watching and understanding a TV programme in a foreign language is not akin to complete mastery over the language. I should know very well - I am able to understand Cantonese programmes perfectly but I am just not up to the mark when it comes to speaking it.
The people I was talking about both have university degrees from their home countries and come from educated families. I'm sure their Spanish is perfectly good. I agree with Uriel -- you have your prejudice and won't allow that it might not be true, even though you don't know these people.
I know two german-speakers, they're belgians and their mother tongues are german, but they speak absolutly fluently french, nearly perfectly. I've learned german from them, so we talked in german during the year I saw them (for learn it). Now I can speak quite well german, and when we meet we code switch german/french. Sometimes a word, expression, phrase will be better descriptive for something in german, other one in french.
They are capable to speak excellent french, and I can have conversations in german without difficulty. But, it's very fun and became natural for us code-switching.
I sometimes code-switch with my friends from France. When I was staying there, I spoke in French all the time, but for some reason, he often spoke to me in English. I wasn't sure if it was because he thought that my French wasn't good enough to be able to understand him, or whether it was just because he wanted to practice his English.
When we talk on MSN, I type in French, whilst he types in English.
I also did a lot of code-switching when I had to talk to Italian-speakers from Switzerland when I was in Germany. My German wasn't (and still isn't) very good, and they had usually also learnt French, so we actually used a mixture of German and French (but never English).
What I find very difficult though is to code-switch between English and German. Like, if I say something in German, and the other person unexpectedly responds in English, I often don't understand them, because I assume that they're speaking German words which I don't know.
There are those who are able to revert back to a monolinggual discourse if the occasion calls for it; there are also those who can only code switch as a means of conveying thoughts and ideas.
I am referring to the latter.
Many Singaporeans code switch here and I usually perceive it as a sign of vulgarity. When someone is bilingual, it is really very easy to code switch. It actually becomes a challenge to stick to the straight and narrow - and I am inordinately proud of the fact that when I am speaking in English, I'd never allow a stray Chinese or Malay word to slip into my sentence.
Do you know that code switching is actually taking the easier way out? It's the lazy man's shortcut to instant communication. I have read of a phenomenon called Spanglish which is really quite common among Hispanic families in America. They speak in a hybrid of Spanish and English and think that they are capable of both languages. They then go back to Mexico or other Spanish-speaking countries and realise that their level of Spanish is somewhat inferior to that of their relatives; in school, their English marks are somewhat lower than those of their peers.
I am not a prejudiced prick here. I am simply saying what any other education secretary would say. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Walker's interpretation of code switching mirrors mine.
Quote:
...whilst some are only "fluent" in several languages. The latter group is definitely larger, though. I don't think it's disrespectful when the members of an immigrant family code switches amongst themselves or amongst friends, I rather see it as pretty natural. However, I sort of pity those who aren't really fluent in any one language, and those people are many, I think. Of course I'm referring to young Middle Eastern immigrants or the children of ME immigrants. There are many who aren't really fluent in their mother tongue but not in Swedish either. On the other hand they may be able to converse informally in a couple of other ME languages.
You only need to come here to see how dreadful code switching can be. Someone might be speaking in rapidfire Mandarin but switches to English to describe a concept for which he lacks the vocabulary to do so in Mandarin. This, clearly, is not complete bilingual fluency but a half-baked one where the speaker is only mediocre in both languages.
Of course, it depends on your definition of fluency. For me, a person is only truly fluent in his second language when his mastery over it is complete and akin to that of his mother tongue. The late Pierre Trudeau is a very good example of one who had the ability to speak completely in English or French without seeing the need to code switch at all. When he spoke in English, he'd adopt the mannerisms of English speakers; when he was communicating in French, his gestures and accompanying body language became decidedly Gallic.
This, in my opinion, is the true bilingual which we should all aspire to. Not some so-called bilingual who thinks that switching between languages in mid-sentence is a sign of fluency.
To those who are in favour of code-switching, why don't you begin your sentence in English and end it in Spanish here? After all, code switching is such a goood thing, isn't it? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Because neither Deborah nor I speak Spanish well enough to code switch, my dear loic. That is exactly the point we are making -- you actually have to be really good at both languages to do it.
And I would seriously laugh at your statement that American English-Spanish codeswitchers or Spanglish speakers are deficient in both languages -- many of the ones I know are very intelligent, hold college degrees, and can flip back and forth with total ease. Just because your experience in Singapore with Mandarin speakers doesn't match ours, doesn't mean it holds true for all situations. And the fact that you admit to finding it "vulgar" speaks volumes as to your attitude toward it -- and why you refuse to listen to anything else.
Well, my dear Uriel. We must agree to disagree lest we fall out! I'd hate to sow the seeds of bitter feelings with both you and Deborah because we fail to see eye to eye on this issue.
Of course, I think it is vulgar. But that is not germane to the issue. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
If I were to raise children in another country I'd be strict as hell about them learning Swedish. I wouldn't tolerate it if they spoke 'the other' language to me, at least at home.
Interesting — I've always imagined that, if I were to raise children in, say, Germany, I'd probably just speak to them in German most of the time. Ultimately, I want them to grow up as Germans, not as children who think that 'home' is somewhere other than the place where they've always lived. And I think that my ultimate aim would be to essentially become German myself if I knew that I was going to be staying there for a long time.
Having said that, the children would probably resent me later for not having spoken to them more in English.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish. I think you're right - they would resent you for not having given them what you could have given them. Have my own children speak to me in another language? No way! I'm not just being selfish here, but do consider what a gift it would be to your children.
I won't say nothin' about code switching hispanics and other code switchers that I'm unable to 'judge'; I can only say that the code switching I often hear is rather funny but also a little sad - sometimes. Immigrant kids switch between Arabic/Kurdic/Farsi and Swedish all the time. The reason must be lack of vocabulary and/or lazyness. As for adult immigrants I can't be as sure about the reason, but you'll hear them code switch in a similar manner as that of the kids as well.
Last edited by Walker on Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish. I think you're right - they would resent you for not having given them what you could have given them. Have my own children speak to me in another language? No way! I'm not just being selfish here, but do consider what a gift it would be to your children.
It's probably more about my own prejudice and bias here — I actually prefer German to English, for totally irrational reasons, and I wouldn't like to think that I'd be speaking English most of the time for the rest of my life. And then, there's no guarantee that one's partner would have the same native language as oneself anyway.
But at the same time, I could argue that they'd learn English at school anyway.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish.
I think it might be a Nordic thing. Deep in our hearts we are convinced that no place matches the Nordic countries and we want to give our children the opportunity to return to that safe haven if everything around us collapses.
That is my instinctal feeling too, but objectively I agree with Benjamin, that it is a bit selfish and evil to more or less give your children the feeling that "home" is somewhere else. I for one am grateful that the "language of the heart" of both my parents, the one they told me bedside stories in, is the native dialect of my home province.
Concerning code-switching:
My position is rather neutral, but don't you think it makes a difference if one of the languages is a mere "kitchen tongue" for that person? You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning". _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning".
You do all realize that for most of human history, the vast majority of human beings never got a "formal education", were illiterate, and were still just as intelligent, with just as much ability to think abstractly, problem-solve, and theorize, as you and I today? You do realize that the vastness of every language's everyday vocabulary was developed long before routine universal schooling, which is largely a modern-day invention of the last couple of centuries? That a bushman in the Kalihari Desert speaks a language just as complex and rich in vocabulary as any other?
You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning".
You do all realize that for most of human history, the vast majority of human beings never got a "formal education", were illiterate, and were still just as intelligent, with just as much ability to think abstractly, problem-solve, and theorize, as you and I today? You do realize that the vastness of every language's everyday vocabulary was developed long before routine universal schooling, which is largely a modern-day invention of the last couple of centuries? That a bushman in the Kalihari Desert speaks a language just as complex and rich in vocabulary as any other?
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
The Bushmen in the Kalahari (who actually speak several languages, Bushmen is the collective Western name for a group of nations living in the Kalahari, the most important being the Khoi and the San), do have a rich vocabulary for the world they live in. But outside of that world. the Khoisan languages are even more restricted than the black African languages. _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
True, and some languages invent or borrow words more easily than others for new concepts. But outside technical jargon, I think pretty much every language already has the vocabulary for sophisticated abstract thought -- as part of its everyday lexicon. _________________ An apple a day....
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
Because of this, does it seem probable that most South Africans will eventually end up speaking English/Afrikaans most of the time, and that the black African languages will decline significantly?
True, Uriel! But when a person isn't used to or has never learnt to discuss academic and scientific matters in their "kitchen tongue", they will probably make use of the other language. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
Because of this, does it seem probable that most South Africans will eventually end up speaking English/Afrikaans most of the time, and that the black African languages will decline significantly?
Yes, there is increased concern amongst many black people that exactly that will happen. The black African languages experienced a revival after 1994, but seems to be in decline already (unlike Afrikaans, which also experienced a revival after 1994, and is still growing). _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
I think -- thinking back to some other things people have said -- that if I lived in another country, I would be happy to have my children speak another language to me -- and even happier if I could speak it back, of course. It wouldn't offend me at all. I don't know if that is because as an American descended from non-English-speaking immigrants I just don't have as much of my "identity" wrapped up in it, and don't feel the kind of sense of personal history that Walker and Fredrik do toward their languages, or if it's because of my own childhood experience, or even if it's because English is so widespread that any attempt on my part to preserve it would be a ludicrous drop in the bucket anyway -- but I would think that it was pretty cool -- and entirely natural -- for my child to speak the "native" language at home as well as outside the house.
I would want them to speak English as well, if only because I do, and because it's certainly a helpful language to have. I know that when my German great-great-grandparents came to New Orleans, they forbade the use of German in their home and brought their children up English-only, and that seems harsh, like a denial of themselves. My Portuguese great-grandparents went the opposite route -- they never learned English at all, but their children and their grandchildren all grew up bilingual -- and that seems much more pleasant, like having the best of both worlds.
(Next time I see him, I'll have to ask if my dad ever code-switched! )
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