But our syllabuses are still broadly similar, if you ask me. Lately, there has been a move to ditch the GCEs in favour of the International Baccaleureat (IB) programme, but I vehemently disagree with such a move. I know that the IB promotes a more holistic approach to education by obliging their candidates to take an eclectic range of subjects. However, width comes often at the expense of depth and I can only foresee a decline in maths and physics standards if students are obliged to cram more subjects into their timetable.
To give you an example of the level of maths here, we are often given the choice of being exempted from first year mathematical modules when we go overseas to study. I have a friend at UC Berkeley who was given a free pass for his calculus as well as mechanics modules when he was in his first year there. He's doing electrical engineering by the way.
In Britain, the students aren't even taught imaginary numbers until they enter university!
Well, as you know, we're required to take a smorgasbord of subjects all the way from elementary school through a bachelor's degree, and I was taught imaginary numbers somewhere in late elementary school or middle school.
I've never heard of being assigned to write a complaint letter as an exercise! That's pretty darn funny. _________________ An apple a day....
Well, as you know, we're required to take a smorgasbord of subjects all the way from elementary school through a bachelor's degree, and I was taught imaginary numbers somewhere in late elementary school or middle school.
I am genuinely surprised that you learnt about this abstract concept at such a young age. But then again, academic standards tend to be more rigorous in the past than they are now.
I wonder if you have heard of a sort of internet-based game called MUD (Multi-User Domain) where players interact in a virtual world through mediums such as telnet or Zmud. Well, I used to engage in ooc (Out of Character) chat with many american players there who were around my age and I remember the engineering students amongst them who used to express surprise that I was learning imaginary numbers at pre-university level.
I am not against a wide curriculum as a holistic education is one of the hallmarks of refined upbringing. However, I decry the lack of depth in many of the subjects. Take language learning, for example. How good is the second language skills of a reasonable American after he graduates from high school at 18? Was depth sacrificed for width in this case?
This is not to say that the Singapore system focuses on depth. By obliging us to take at least 7 subjects for our GCE 'O' levels, we could not explore many of the subject themes in detail.
But well, I am dangerously veering away into another pet topic altogether: education! So I'll stop. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I've never heard of being assigned to write a complaint letter as an exercise! That's pretty darn funny.
We get taught how to do that in school, in both languages. Which is probably why nobody ever does it after leaving school. Which is probably why we get terrible service.... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
If you were to go overseas to teach English, you'd probably be classifed as a native teacher and you wouldn't quibble with that tag either once you learn that native English language teachers are usually paid a higher premium than those who have learnt it as a second language.
Really? Although being taught by a native speaker has several advantages, I fail to see the reason for the overall obsession with native speakers. I've met lots of native speakers who were hopelessly bad teachers or weren't teachers at all -- you know, those who are employed based on a false supposition that the mere fact of being a native speaker automatically entitles a person to teach the language. Sometimes a higly qualified non-native speaker does a far better job of it.
loic wrote:
'Lieutenant' is pronounced as left-tuh-nant. In Malay, lieutenant is actually spelled as leftenant.
I pronounce it this way, too. I usually get quizzical looks for it in Hungary and Germany...my peers assume that I either have some rare kind of speech impediment or I simply failed to acquire the basics of standard English pronunciation. However, to me, both the British and the American pronunciation of this word seem pretty odd and illogical as I would expect it to be pronounced roughly in the French way.
loic wrote:
'Medicine' is pronounced with two syllables. But some people do pronounce with three but they are usually the Chinese-speaking types who have to break up every syllable of a word in order to know how to spell it.
Me, too -- with three syllables. It's probably the vestige of the "let's pronounce the way we spell" style Hungarian attitude towards language. For this reason, I've always had a peculiar aversion towards saying "medsin".
loic wrote:
We do not make "can" and "can't" sound like homonyms like the North Americans do.
I just love it when some learners pronounce "can't" as "cunt"! Does anyone tend to do it in Singapore, too?
loic wrote:
Even our 'A' levels are slightly different. They have AS levels; we don't.
I see. But unlike you, the "A" level thing and the BA/MA system is all Greek to most Hungarian people except for those who are Greek (there are lots of them): to them, it's double Dutch. Our secondary education is, of course, totally different from that of the UK but quite similar to that of other European countries. Higher education used to be different but from 2007 onwards we are in the Bologna system. Although I have a vague notion of how this system works, I'm not deeply involved in it. I count as a fossil with my solid 22 (going on 23!) years as I'm in the old "five years of study makes a university degree" system. At least, if you are a double major in philology -- it's only four years if you are a single major in philology except when you are studying archeology or sociology in which case it's five years. There are three years' subjects as well (marketing, human resources and other Mickey Mouse majors). Other "normal" subjects normally take five years.
loic wrote:
I know the feeling. It sucks, right? But at least you do not have clean the toilets, do you?
Funnily enough, I don't. Okay, you don't usually find puke in the toilet bowls but our toilet is in a dismal condition. Moreover, it's a full-fledged "In-Yer-Face Theatre" as it's a toilet for boys and girls only...very exclusive. Of course, boys are always using the urinals instead of cubicles and aren't bothered by the sight of blushing girls.
loic wrote:
When I was undergoing basic military training, I was given the job of toilet I/C, meaning I was in charge of cleaning the toilets. There was this time when some bugger puked all over the place in the middle of the night. I was not aware of it until the next morning when the damage was already largely done. So while everyone was having their breakfast, my motley crew and I (the toilet detail) were busily mopping the floor.
You must have had a good time there... _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Last edited by Liz on Sat May 26, 2007 8:53 pm; edited 3 times in total
You did???!!! " alt="" border="0" /> Is it still compulsary in Hungary? We didn't even have that in the apartheid years! " alt="" border="0" /> _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
You did???!!! " alt="" border="0" /> Is it still compulsary in Hungary? We didn't even have that in the apartheid years! " alt="" border="0" />
NO, IT'S NOT ME!!!! It was Loic. I got the quotation wrong!!!!!!!!!! Aaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It used to be compulsory and it's only a couple of years since it isn't. It has never been compulsory for women...I think. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
You did???!!! " alt="" border="0" /> Is it still compulsary in Hungary? We didn't even have that in the apartheid years! " alt="" border="0" />
NO, IT'S NOT ME!!!! It was Loic. I got the quotation wrong!!!!!!!!!! Aaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It used to be compulsory and it's only a couple of years since it isn't. It has never been compulsory for women...I think.
Ah OK. I just wondered, we were told about you reddies... er, I mean... communists.... er, I mean, you people who had communist governments... and how your only purpose in life was to take over South Africa.... at least, that's what the apartheid government told us, and they couldn't possibly have lied... could they? _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Well, as you know, loic, there is no universal standard of education across the country in the US, and there are some variations from one school district to another. I moved every few years as a child, so I found that out firsthand -- I would have already learned in one school what was taught later in another, or not at all in a third. As for imaginary numbers, I remember being taught what they were, having to do a few week's worth of problems, and then moving on -- the smorgasbord effect. No, I don't remember much about them now. I also don't remember how to factor a trinomial, although that, too, was drilled into my head at one point. But use it or lose it .... Trig and physics were also taught in my high school, but they were electives -- you had satisfied your scholastic requirements once you had taken geometry and two years of algebra. I liked math, but was never deeply interested in it. Same with languages. I really didn't like history much at all and took very little interest in it even at the college level. The sciences always fascinated me, and I took away a lot more from those classes than most students -- not because they didn't get the same textbooks and lectures that I did, but because I simply invested myself in reading and understanding them and working out the relationships. While most students get out of high school language classes with only a smattering of working knowledge, as you say, I also had friends who adored Spanish or French and took advanced classes in them, could speak them well, and went on to major in them in college. So the advantage of the smorgasbord system is that it allows you to be exposed to a wide variety of subjects so that you can figure out which ones you personally like; the drawback is that if you want in-depth knowledge, you have to take that initiative to learn yourself. Teachers will be happy to give you supplementary materials or assign you more advanced (or different) reading or projects if they know you like it and show the interest.
Andre, I have a feeling that our consumer system tends to simply sidestep the issue of complaint letters, since it's so common to offer "satisfaction guaranteed" -- as long as you have your sales receipt, many items can be returned for money back with no questions asked -- they don't even care why you didn't like it! _________________ An apple a day....
Andre, I have a feeling that our consumer system tends to simply sidestep the issue of complaint letters, since it's so common to offer "satisfaction guaranteed" -- as long as you have your sales receipt, many items can be returned for money back with no questions asked -- they don't even care why you didn't like it!
Which is why the USA is great! Here, you basically have to kill the managing director to return any item.... The motto here seems to be: The customer is always wrong.... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Ah OK. I just wondered, we were told about you reddies... er, I mean... communists.... er, I mean, you people who had communist governments... and how your only purpose in life was to take over South Africa.... at least, that's what the apartheid government told us, and they couldn't possibly have lied... could they?
Interesting...then it must have been some sort of a subconscious aspiration on the part of our then government. The plebs weren't informed on that. The government weren't, either. They didn't even waste a single word on South Africa. They just went on and on with the "rotting" imperial states ad nauseam, who allegedly lived in squalor, filth and horror. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Ah OK. I just wondered, we were told about you reddies... er, I mean... communists.... er, I mean, you people who had communist governments... and how your only purpose in life was to take over South Africa.... at least, that's what the apartheid government told us, and they couldn't possibly have lied... could they?
Interesting...then it must have been some subconscious aspiration on the part of our then government. The plebs weren't informed on that. The government weren't, either. They didn't even waste a single word on South Africa, they just went on and on with the "rotting" imperial states ad infinitum, who lived allegedly in squalor, filth and horror.
You see how evil they were? Trying to take over South Africa, and not even knowing it! Mpphhhffff, ignoring us like that! You mean while we considered countries like Poland and Hungary as enemies, you were hardly aware of us? So how are we supposed to feel about that, jeez.... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Just in case you misunderstand me... I'm joking... During the apartheid years, all communist states were portrayed here as enemies of SA. That was all part of the propaganda of the apartheid govt to ensure they retain power. The message was - black government = communist government = disaster for all Afrikaners/white people. Long story.... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
You see how evil they were? Trying to take over South Africa, and not even knowing it! Mpphhhffff, ignoring us like that! You mean while we considered countries like Poland and Hungary as enemies, you were hardly aware of us? So how are we supposed to feel about that, jeez....
Did you consider us enemies??? I didn't know that.
I think the communist block were so much preoccupied with the US that they didn't have enough time and energy to cherish powerful affections like hatred for a small country off the beaten track.
Of course, you are joking. I'm joking, too. However, SA wasn't mentioned among the great enemies that time, as far as I'm aware. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
You see how evil they were? Trying to take over South Africa, and not even knowing it! Mpphhhffff, ignoring us like that! You mean while we considered countries like Poland and Hungary as enemies, you were hardly aware of us? So how are we supposed to feel about that, jeez....
Did you consider us enemies??? I didn't know that.
I think the communist block were so much preoccupied with the US that they didn't have enough time and energy to cherish such powerful affections like hatred for a small country off the beaten track.
Of course, you are joking. I'm joking, too. However, SA wasn't mentioned among the great enemies that time, as far as I'm aware.
Hmmppphhh... Actually, on a more serious note, we were a target of the Soviet block, because of our mineral wealth. The USSR gave a lot of help (financial and otherwise) to the SA Communist Party and the ANC to ensure a communist government in SA. The apartheid government used this to their benefit, but there was some truth to their propaganda about this. And yes, we did consider all communist countries as enemies.
I'm glad those days are over... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Hmmppphhh... Actually, on a more serious note, we were a target of the Soviet block, because of our mineral wealth. The USSR gave a lot of help (financial and otherwise) to the SA Communist Party and the ANC to ensure a communist government in SA. The apartheid government used this to their benefit, but there was some truth to their propaganda about this. And yes, we did consider all communist countries as enemies.
A useful and interesting piece of information, André. I didn't know that. I have to ask someone from the older generation if they were aware of that but I assume this issue didn't get much publicity over here. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Hmmppphhh... Actually, on a more serious note, we were a target of the Soviet block, because of our mineral wealth. The USSR gave a lot of help (financial and otherwise) to the SA Communist Party and the ANC to ensure a communist government in SA. The apartheid government used this to their benefit, but there was some truth to their propaganda about this. And yes, we did consider all communist countries as enemies.
A useful and interesting piece of information, André. I didn't know that. I have to ask someone from the older generation if they were aware of that but I assume this issue didn't get much publicity over here.
I would guess all of this would have received little (public) attention over there, but here it received a lot of attention. Even when you consider what was probably lies by a government which was evil as such, there was still more than enough proof that the communist block was planning a communist takeover of South Africa. _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:39 am Post subject:
loic wrote:
We do not make "can" and "can't" sound like homonyms like the North Americans do.
We don't. We don't pronounce "can't" the way non-North Americans do, but we don't say it just like "can." If we did, we'd constantly have to stop each other and ask "Did you say "can" or "can't?" And even that question wouldn't make sense if we pronounced them the same.
We don't pronounce "can't" the way non-North Americans do, but we don't say it just like "can." If we did, we'd constantly have to stop each other and ask "Did you say "can" or "can't?" And even that question wouldn't make sense if we pronounced them the same.
LOL!!!!!!!!! it would be extremely funny and an unanswerable question.
Well, as you know, loic, there is no universal standard of education across the country in the US, and there are some variations from one school district to another.
Yes, I am aware of that, Uriel. But still, wouldn't the syllabus be broadly similar across the country? After all, every student is trained to sit for the SATs and standards should not diverge wildly.
Quote:
The sciences always fascinated me, and I took away a lot more from those classes than most students -- not because they didn't get the same textbooks and lectures that I did, but because I simply invested myself in reading and understanding them and working out the relationships.
It is fairly obvious that the natural sciences are your forte. However, I feel that the hallmark of an all-rounded education should encompass a broad range of subjects that should also include a musical education and sport for character development.
Using the teaching of foreign languages as an example, I think it is pointless if they are teaching it without producing students who turn out to be reasonably competent speakers. In my view, one either does something well or not attempt to do it at all. What is the point of sitting through a few years of Spanish or French class and not knowing pretty much beyond counting 1 to 10 at the end of high school?
I can make the same argument for mathematics. It always pisses me off when people moan about how 'useless' mathematics is. Literacy should not just be about letters; there is also something called numerical literacy.
Quote:
Really? Although being taught by a native speaker has several advantages, I fail to see the reason for the overall obsession with native speakers.
I suppose it is because a language is not just a dull colourless programming language like QBasic or C++ but rather a medium by which culture and literature are also transmitted. I'd go out on a limb here and say that most second language learners of English are not familiar with many of the culturally-specific English phrases such as 'being in a sticky wicket' or 'being bowled over' or 'scoring an own goal'.
Quote:
However, to me, both the British and the American pronunciation of this word seem pretty odd and illogical as I would expect it to be pronounced roughly in the French way.
Kirk, an old hand in this forum, once dispassionately and rationally explained to me the origins of the word 'lieutenant'. Apparently, it was once spelled as lefttenant before fashionable French spellings replaced the original ones. While the spelling might have evolved, the pronunciation has not kept pace with the change and how we continue to pronounce this subaltern rank is something like a linguistic fossil.
Personally, I like how we in Singapore pronounce many of our words. English is not a phonetic tongue; we do not pronounce the 's' in island or isle, do we?
I always cringe when people pronounce 'medicine' with three syllables. But it's a sociocultural thing: as I've explained, it's usually those who are less adept with the English language here who tend to pronounce it phonetically.
Quote:
I just love it when some learners pronounce "can't" as "cunt"!
Er....I think I pronounce 'can't in that way.
Quote:
There are three years' subjects as well (marketing, human resources and other Mickey Mouse majors).
I like how you derisively painted those 3 year degree courses as Mickey Mouse majors. Some degrees cannot be taken too seriously such as a Bachelor in Leisure Studies or a Bachelor in Football Management or something along those lines.
Incidentally, shouldn't female undergraduates be awarded a Spinster degree upon graduation? A Bachelor is a strictly masculine title.
So imagine the academic credentials of a certain female graduate who had read history in university: SA (Spinster of Arts) 1-1 (First Class Honours).
Quote:
Of course, boys are always using the urinals instead of cubicles and aren't bothered by the sight of blushing girls
Not that you'd blush, I suppose. You must be pretty blase by now. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
We do not make "can" and "can't" sound like homonyms like the North Americans do.
We don't. We don't pronounce "can't" the way non-North Americans do, but we don't say it just like "can." If we did, we'd constantly have to stop each other and ask "Did you say "can" or "can't?" And even that question wouldn't make sense if we pronounced them the same.
But still, the differences between your "can" and "can't" are not as stark as how I pronounce mine.
When Jack Nicholson's character famously spat out the "You can't handle the truth" line in A Few Good Men, I initially thought he was assuring Tom Cruise, albeit in a venemous fashion, that he is able to handle the truth.
_________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
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Does anyone tend to do it in Singapore, too?
The motto here seems to be: The customer is always wrong....
You mean while we considered countries like Poland and Hungary as enemies, you were hardly aware of us? 
it would be extremely funny and an unanswerable question.