I always find it rather fascinating that Afrikaans developed as a seperate language, while all other European "white" colonies retained the same language spoken in the mother land.
It would be more accurate to say that Modern Dutch and Modern Afrikaans developed from 17th century Dutch. But even then, there is considerable dialect diversity within the Dutch-speaking world.
It's also a bit of an oversimplification to suggest that all other 'white' European colonies simply retained the same language spoken in the 'mother land'. You don't speak the same as me, for example.
The difference between what I speak and what you speak amounts to a different accent and a few slang words, along with slight variations on common words such as "while" vs. "whilst". But we both speak the same language, and communicate naturally and with ease, at 100% fluency between each other. We don't speak entire different *languages*. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
The difference between what I speak and what you speak amounts to a different accent and a few slang words, along with slight variations on common words such as "while" vs. "whilst". But we both speak the same language, and communicate naturally and with ease, at 100% fluency between each other. We don't speak entire different *languages*.
From a linguistic perspective, it's actually rather difficult (some would say inappropriate) to distinguish clearly between one language and another. I have difficulty understanding people from Northeast England; you might not find them much more intelligible than speakers of Frisian. Yet they would call their language 'English' — so is that a separate language, or not?
You could say that the divergence between Standard Dutch and Standard Afrikaans since the 17th century has simply been greater than the divergence between Standard British English and Standard American English. However, there was not a certain point where Afrikaans became a 'separate language' from Dutch.
Last edited by Benjamin [inactive] on Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
?? I thought both of you spoke English ? What language do you sepak Benjamin ? Birminghamian ?
I speak Standard British English with Received Pronunciation (i.e. 'posh accent'). Josh probably speaks some variety of Californian English. It's not the same.
Josh probably speaks some variety of Californian English. It's not the same.
Actually at school what I had learned was not californian but English, but I can understand as much what he says than what you say. If above one of your messages your name wasn't writed I coudn't ebbn able to know if it was your British English, or his California English...
Yes, I see what you mean. It's just that I often find it difficult to draw the line between one 'language' and another, because there are many regional dialects of 'English' within Britain which (at least in their broadest forms) differ as much as Swedish, Norwegian and Danish differ from each-other, even though they are not usually regarded as 'separate languages'.
fab wrote:
Actually at school what I had learned was not californian but English, but I can understand as much what he says than what you say. If above one of your messages your name wasn't writed I coudn't ebbn able to know if it was your British English, or his California English...
That's because the written language is largely standardised (except for minor differences in spelling), and we tend not to use much slang on a forum like this (I don't use much slang in speaking either). I'm talking about the everyday spoken language. For example, at least amongst each-other, many people from Northeast England actually speak like this:
Tha wance wes ih wren wee hed med his nest in thi garidge. He lived theor wiris famly. Wurn day he end his marras went oot tu luck fo surm scran tu bring theor banties, leavin thi yung bords aal alern.
(Quoted from a Northumbrian translation of a traditional Low Saxon story).
For example, at least amongst each-other, many people from Northeast England actually speak like this:
Tha wance wes ih wren wee hed med his nest in thi garidge. He lived theor wiris famly. Wurn day he end his marras went oot tu luck fo surm scran tu bring theor banties, leavin thi yung bords aal alern.
Still many people talk like this today. The majority of Northern English people ?
Is ther such a local dialect in your region ?
Quote:
That's because the written language is largely standardised (except for minor differences in spelling), and we tend not to use much slang on a forum like this (I don't use much slang in speaking either).
That's why it is the SAME language, no ?
Actually if speaking about slangs it is another thing. I have acousin who use a lot of slang language - he is from the same place than me, speak the same language - but sometime I feel I have difficulties to understant some of it...
Tha wance wes ih wren wee hed med his nest in thi garidge. He lived theor wiris famly. Wurn day he end his marras went oot tu luck fo surm scran tu bring theor banties, leavin thi yung bords aal alern.
(Quoted from a Northumbrian translation of a traditional Low Saxon story).
I think you would be better off illustrating your point by linking to a sound file; I doubt even people from North-East England would be able to read and understand that.
For example, at least amongst each-other, many people from Northeast England actually speak like this:
Tha wance wes ih wren wee hed med his nest in thi garidge. He lived theor wiris famly. Wurn day he end his marras went oot tu luck fo surm scran tu bring theor banties, leavin thi yung bords aal alern.
Still many people talk like this today. The majority of Northern English people ?
Most people in Northumbria, which is the county in the far Northeast of England, yes.
fab wrote:
Is ther such a local dialect in your region ?
Yes, there is. It's called Brummie. I don't actually speak it though, but most people here do to a greater or lesser extent.
Since Shouga suggested it, I will post a recording which I have previous posted on this forum. I don't actually have a good enough example of Northumbrian dialect, so I'll post the recording of Black Country dialect, which is spoken in the area just to the west of Birmingham. I remember Josh saying that he could only understand about 50% of it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselecto...gc=C0C0C0&nbram=1&bbram=1
fab wrote:
Quote:
That's because the written language is largely standardised (except for minor differences in spelling), and we tend not to use much slang on a forum like this (I don't use much slang in speaking either).
That's why it is the SAME language, no ?
It's the same (or at least extremely similar) standard written language, yes. But I see the written language as being of secondary importance to the spoken language.
fab wrote:
Actually if speaking about slangs it is another thing. I have acousin who use a lot of slang language - he is from the same place than me, speak the same language - but sometime I feel I have difficulties to understant some of it...
Regional variations of language within Britain is about more than 'slang'. There are differences in vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar. For example, when you learnt English, you probably learnt to conjugate the verb 'to be' like this:
I am
you are
he is
she is
we are
you are
they are
However, some people actually conjugate it differently, depending on their regional dialect. Likewise, you probably learnt the possessive adjectives in English like this:
It's the same (or at least extremely similar) standard written language, yes. But I see the written language as being of secondary importance to the spoken language.
I don't think that an english person would have any problem to communicate orally in the USA using English... That what I did??? I understood the people and the people understood me !
Wao! how suprising, since I never learned American before but only English
It's the same (or at least extremely similar) standard written language, yes. But I see the written language as being of secondary importance to the spoken language.
I don't think that an english person would have any problem to communicate orally in the USA using English... That what I did??? I understood the people and the people understood me !
Wao! how suprising, since I never learned American before but only English
You learnt Standard British English (even though you seem to use American spellings), which is similar to Standard American English. I'm talking about regional dialects, primarily in the British Isles.
Anyway, two languages which are usually seen as 'separate' can be mutually intelligible to a large extent. Fredrik mentioned that he can speak naturally with Swedish and Danish people, for example. My question is — to what extent do a working-class black person from the Southern US and a retired farmer from Northeast England really speak the same language?
Benjamin, I doubt that they learn different conjugations in different regions of England. The reason for why different conjugations than 'Standard English' are used is more to do with casual dialect than anything else.
fab wrote:
Quote:
It's the same (or at least extremely similar) standard written language, yes. But I see the written language as being of secondary importance to the spoken language.
I don't think that an english person would have any problem to communicate orally in the USA using English... That what I did??? I understood the people and the people understood me !
Wao! how suprising, since I never learned American before but only English
American is just an English dialect - hence why it is known as 'American English', not just American.
My question is — to what extent do a working-class black person from the Southern US and a retired farmer from Northeast England really speak the same language?
To every extent, as far as I'm concerned. Their dialects may be completely different, but they will still understand each other (although of course, as with everything, their understanding of each other's accents would increase over time that is spent listening to each other). Some people from England cannot understand Canadian English or American English - that doesn't mean American English is a separate language from Standard English.
You learnt Standard British English (even though you seem to use American spellings), which is similar to Standard American English. I'm talking about regional dialects, primarily in the British Isles
Yes, the language that yourself and, say, Josh is just the same language, I don't understand why you seem not liking to recognise it !
We are not talking about the regional dialects of some isolated English or north American regions, but the standard English, which is in the US and in England considered to be the same language.
We are not talking about the regional dialects and slangs, and yourself you recognise that you don't speak the regional dialect of your region but the standard form.
Benjamin, I doubt that they learn different conjugations in different regions of England. The reason for why different conjugations than 'Standard English' are used is more to do with casual dialect than anything else.
You're right; they would not be taught to write like 'you am' and 'tha bist' at school, although people from some regions do say things like that in real life. Remember our conversation about people from West Yorkshire saying 'us books' instead of 'our books'?
Shouga wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
My question is — to what extent do a working-class black person from the Southern US and a retired farmer from Northeast England really speak the same language?
To every extent, as far as I'm concerned. Their dialects may be completely different, but they will still understand each other (although of course, as with everything, their understanding of each other's accents would increase over time that is spent listening to each other).
They would probably be able to make themselves understand each-other, yes. But if you were to playing a recording of retired farmers talking in a pub in Northeast England to a working-class family in the Southern US, they would probably not be able to understand it very well. And vice versa.
fab wrote:
Yes, the language that yourself and, say, Josh is just the same language, I don't understand why you seem not liking to recognise it !
We are not talking about the regional dialects of some isolated English or north American regions, but the standard English, which is in the US and in England considered to be the same language.
They are two different standard varieties of English, yes. But I don't understand why the focus must be on the standard forms, because the notion of a 'standard language' is an entirely artificial concept — it is not superior to regional dialects.
Last edited by Benjamin [inactive] on Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total
They are two different standard varieties of English, yes. But I don't understand why the focus must be on the standard forms, because the notion of a 'standard language' is an entirely artificial concept — it is not superior to regional dialects.
I would be really surprised to learn that most people in England don't speak English but local dialects... Is that what you mean ?
And how is that you don't speak the dialect of your own region if "english" is so much regionalized ? how can you communicate with other people if they don't speak standard English ?
They are two different standard varieties of English, yes. But I don't understand why the focus must be on the standard forms, because the notion of a 'standard language' is an entirely artificial concept — it is not superior to regional dialects.
I would be really surprised to learn that most people in England don't speak English but local dialects... Is that what you mean ?
And how is that you don't speak the dialect of your own region if "english" is so much regionalized ? how can you communicate with other people if they don't speak standard English ?
Nope. When we say 'English dialects', it means more like 'English accents' than anything else. However, some of these 'accents' take on characteristics which are different from standard English, like saying 'us books' instead of 'our books', hence why we call them dialects. However, we can all understand each other perfectly well - the difference between a Brummie 'dialect' and a Devonshire 'dialect' is nothing like the difference between the dialects of Mandarin and Cantonese, for example.
I would be really surprised to learn that most people in England don't speak English but local dialects... Is that what you mean ?
That is essentially what I mean. In fact, I would argue that relatively few people in England really speak 'Standard British English'; instead, they speak their regional dialects of English. You must understand that people from England (especially Northern England) tend to have much greater emotional attachment to their regional dialects than to the 'English language' as a whole — dialect diversity is considered very important.
fab wrote:
And how is that you don't speak the dialect of your own region if "english" is so much regionalized ?
Because I'm essentially a bourgeois. I can still understand Birmingham dialect, but I do not speak it.
fab wrote:
how can you communicate with other people if they don't speak standard English ?
It's not all that different. Anyway, Fredrik has already explained (on another thread) that he can communicate easily in Norwegian with Swedish and Danish speakers.
Because I'm essentially a bourgois. I can still understand Birmingham dialect, but I do not speak it.
I still don't understand what you meant when you said you didn't speak the same language than Porthos, since himself and yourserf speak standard english, and since the only variation of the english "dialects" concerns some minor pronouciation nuances... That's not what I would call a "different language" at all !
It seems to bother you that your language and the American one are actually the same.
Because I'm essentially a bourgois. I can still understand Birmingham dialect, but I do not speak it.
I still don't understand what you meant when you said you didn't speak the same language than Porthos, since himself and yourserf speak standard english, and since the only variation of the english "dialects" concerns some minor pronouciation nuances... That's not what I would call a "different language" at all !.
When I say 'language', I essentially mean speech variety, which is what 'language' is, as far as I'm concerned. No, Standard British English and Standard American English are not 'the same'. And there many more differences between English dialects than simply 'some minor pronunciation nuances'.
All times are GMT + 2 Hours Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Next
Page 1 of 5
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
