Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: Our conceptions of Europe
We have talken endlessly of how we see one or other European countries (or regions, part of countries) relates to each other in our mental maps.
talking most of the time the superficial impression such as climate, or more complex things such as architectural ambiances (which mix up culture with pure geographic characteristics), and pure cultural, religious of linguistic point of views.
This is about the way I would, generalizing represent the different regions of Western Europe, taking in account my impressions, the general ambiance, and the cultural grouping toghether.
I explain it:
-North Western Europe. As its name say it it is geographically the north parts of W Europe. The ones that surround the north sea and the Baltic.
they also share a more or less north European oceanic climate dut to its position, and also colder condition Scandinavia (the reason why I make a sub-group of it)
- linguistically germanic, and mostly protestant (excepted ireland and some other regions)
- the general ambiance is more subjective thing, but could be divided in three major groups: the nordic scandinavian ambiance, the British/Dutch ambiances. Northern Germany could be perceved as intermediary between both.
- Central Europe. Actually it is more "german-speaking regions of central Europe", sicne central Europe extend also on Slavic nations more at the east.
Sharing a same language (or groups of dialects), similar semi-continental climatic conditions, with colder winters and hotter summers.
Sharing relief condition, with more hilly landsceapes, or mountains in its southern part.
And above all sharing historical influences, such as Austria-Hungary empire, and also influences of Italy. landlock contienatal regions , but situation also at the gate of east and south-east Europe
religiously traditionally catholic.
- Middle-western Europe. In fact mostly the northern half of France and maybe also including Neighbouring french speaking parts of Belgium and Switezerland. The name is not spread and used but I think it actually reflects quite clearly its geographical position - between the north and south of western Europe, at the same latitudes than "central Europe";
But it does not share the same cultural influences, linguistical (not german-speaking), climatical (mostly not continental), geographical (not being landlocked, neither between east and west), so canno't being included in it. but having middle position, Being romance speaking, and catholic, it could be hardly be associated with north Europe, but neither fully with south western Europe because of climate, localisation and general ambiance.
- South-western Europe. the countries and regions that lies geographically clearly in the southern parts of Europe. Sharing linguistic similarities, catholic traditions, ambiance and in a lesser extend (due to the presence of alot of mountains and also the Atlantic) climatical.
I'm not sure that I'd think of it quite like that, because the Scottish Highlands are not very similar to Lower Saxony, and because I didn't find places like Auvergne and Galicia to be very typically 'Southern European' when I was there. I'd probably divide it into more regions than just that.
Anyway, what about Eastern Europe? Everyone seems to be going to Prague, Budapest and Bratislava these days.
because I didn't find places like Auvergne and Galicia to be very typically 'Southern European' when I was there
How could you say that Tuscany is more south European than Galicia, or Venezia more south European than Auvergne ? Just because the grass is green ?
The colour of the grass can be an influential factor, yes. For example, there is clearly a Central European grass colour which I noticed in Southern Germany and Austria. It is different shade from the colour in England, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, or Northern France.
Cette carte est très intéressante, fab. Je situerais la zone correspondant à la Grande-Grèce antique (sud de la péninsule italienne + Sicile) hors du Méridion occidental pour la classer dans le Méridion oriental ; à moins qu'il ne s'agisse du Méridion central.
Je suis d'accord avec les contours du Septentrion occidental, à ceci près : pourquoi en exclure la Wallonie et y inclure le Nord—Pas-de-Calais ? Où se situerait l'archipel normand ?
Quant au Milieu occidental, son flanc est semble épouser l'ancienne ligne de fracture romano-germanique. Cela revient à dire que sa frontière orientale est linguistique. Idem pour les confins orientaux du Septentrion occidental et du Méridion occidental puisque les démarcations germano-slave et romano-slave les limitent.
The colour of the grass can be an influential factor, yes
Do you realise that the grass color change drastically with seasons? actually, the "freshy"/"greeny" ambiance of Auvergne is due mainly to isolation of the plateaus and the relief -which make it cooler and wetter than surrounding lower regions.
Actually my maps is not that much associated with landscape ambiances, which varies a lot, especially in the southern part of Europe, due to the high number of mountains and plateaus.
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The colour of the grass can be an influential factor, yes. For example, there is clearly a Central European grass colour which I noticed in Southern Germany and Austria.
Actually, the landscapes and grass color is of course very different from the bavarian plain and the alpine austrian regions. but both share can be identified as central European - even with drastically different natural ambiances.
The colour of the grass can be an influential factor, yes
Do you realise that the grass color change drastically with seasons? actually, the "freshy"/"greeny" ambiance of Auvergne is due mainly to isolation of the plateaus and the relief -which make it cooler and wetter than surrounding lower regions.
I wasn't being entirely serious.
It's just that I don't think of Auvergne as being part of 'Southern Europe'. I don't really know why, but I don't.
Lol, this could be a new funny game - look at the grass and guess where those meadows are located!
Okay, seriously!
It is strange that various countries or cultures group the Western European countries together differently. In Germany for example, Britain is not considered as Northern European, but just as Western European, although parts of Scotland stretches into the northern part. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
It is strange that various countries or cultures group the Western European countries together differently.
Yes, this question has interested me since some times - especially when discussing with people on this board - It is amazing how different our conceptions can be different.
For exemple I was suprised to learn that a lot of people would consider Germany as an Alpine country, since for me the Alps are more a southern European range, while Germany is to me a northern European country...
This is really interesting to compare the ideas we have in our minds, and try to understand why we do have these and not the inverse.
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Cette carte est très intéressante, fab. Je situerais la zone correspondant à la Grande-Grèce antique (sud de la péninsule italienne + Sicile) hors du Méridion occidental pour la classer dans le Méridion oriental ; à moins qu'il ne s'agisse du Méridion central.
Oui, je suis assez d'accord. J'ai toujours pensé que la différence entre l'Italie du Nord et du sud était autant une différence est-ouest que nord-sud. Il est clair que cette partie de la botte Italienne est géographiquement et historiquement située entre le monde méditerranean occidental et le monde méditerrannéen oriental. Cependant l'unité Italienne politique fut aussi linguistique, et j'associe donc cette partie de l'Italie à l'Europe du sud-ouest pour ces raison politiques et linguistiques. Par ailleurs, pour moi l'Europe du sud-est a une dimension majoritairement orthodoxe (et musulmane bien sur) au lieu d'une dimension catholique (je ne suis pas sur d'associer la Croatie ou la Slovenie à cette zone pour cette raison).
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Je suis d'accord avec les contours du Septentrion occidental, à ceci près : pourquoi en exclure la Wallonie et y inclure le Nord—Pas-de-Calais ? Où se situerait l'archipel normand ?
Pour des raisons géographiques (latitudes), mais surtout concernant l'ambiance générale. Quand on rentre dans la région nord pas de Calais on entre dans une region à l'ambiance définitivement nord-Européenne, très différente de celle du reste du nord de la France. l'architecture, la culture de la bière, la cuisine d'inspiration flamande, tout celà est pour moi très nord-Européen. L'ancienne influence culturelle et linguistique flamande n'y est pas pour rien. A lille, on se sent plus proche de Londres, Bruxelles ou Amsterdam que de Paris. Concernant la Wallonie, je me trompe peu être étént donné que je ne connais pas cette région, mais je tend à l'imaginer plus proche de la champagne-ardenne que de la flandre (même française). Mais je pourrais aussi l'inclure. En fait je considere l'ensemble nord-pas-de-calais/Wallonie comme une zone intermédiaire entre l'Europe occidentale médiane et l'Europe du Nord - celàa se ressent dans la culture, l'ambiance et la(les) langue(s).
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Quant au Milieu occidental, son flanc est semble épouser l'ancienne ligne de fracture romano-germanique. Cela revient à dire que sa frontière orientale est linguistique. Idem pour les confins orientaux du Septentrion occidental et du Méridion occidental puisque les démarcations germano-slave et romano-slave les limitent.
oui, je considère le monde sud-germanique comme ayant été le principal vecteur d'une certaine identité dont le vecteur fut principalement la langue, dans la région qu'ici on qualifie de "Europe centrale".
Il suffit de faire un petit voyage vers l'est de la France pour se rendre compte d'un changement d'architecture assez net entre les versants occidentaux et orientaux des Vosges - le passage d'un ambiance nord-Française à une ambiance plus typiquement centre-Européenne telle qu'on la retrouve en Alsace suit assez nettement cette frontière linguistique. Il en est de même dans la région du Tyrol Italien, qui présente des caractéristiques architecturales nettement plus "Autrichiennes" que nord-Italienne.
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I wasn't being entirely serious.
It's just that I don't think of Auvergne as being part of 'Southern Europe'. I don't really know why, but I don't.
I actually think I know. I think it is because, generally speaking English-speaking cultures tend to think France as a whole not being southern European. And Auvergne is situated in a quite centralish region of France, so considering it a southern European would mean that most of France is, which seems difficult to recognise in these cultures. While Auvergne is in reality situated at the same latitudes than the Venezian area, which being in Italy and being opened on the mediterranean (adriatic), is considered southern European from a English-speaking point of view.
The second reason is maybe the principal one; it is because when you've been there it didn't fit with the the stereotype of southern Europe which seem to be spread in Northern cultures; as something being "hot (or at least warm), very dry, with plants that are seen as exotic such as palms or olive-trees. Actually this coresponds to regions of mediterranean climate areas, to which Auvergne, being a plateaus and moutains regions quite distant from the sea isn't part - while it is culturally a regions of southern France, which was speaking a occitan language.
I actually think I know. I think it is because, generally speaking English-speaking cultures tend to think France as a whole not being southern European. And Auvergne is situated in a quite centralish region of France, so considering it a southern European would mean that most of France is, which seems difficult to recognise in these cultures. While Auvergne is in reality situated at the same latitudes than the Venezian area, which being in Italy and being opened on the mediterranean (adriatic), is considered southern European from a English-speaking point of view.
The second reason is maybe the principal one; it is because when you've been there it didn't fit with the the stereotype of southern Europe which seem to be spread in Northern cultures; as something being "hot (or at least warm), very dry, with plants that are seen as exotic such as palms or olive-trees. Actually this coresponds to regions of mediterranean climate areas, to which Auvergne, being a plateaus and moutains regions quite distant from the sea isn't part - while it is culturally a regions of southern France, which was speaking a occitan language.
Well I think we tend to think of southern France as being "southern European", but the north of France carries a different ambiance, and the people are not what we would normally associate with the south of Europe, so for us, they're sort of central European.
But why is that you think only the "Anglo-Saxons" feel this way about France? Most northern Europeans of other Germanic speaking cultures seem to feel this way as well from my experience. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Well I think we tend to think of southern France as being "southern European", but the north of France carries a different ambiance, and the people are not what we would normally associate with the south of Europe, so for us, they're sort of central European.
But why is that you think only the "Anglo-Saxons" feel this way about France? Most northern Europeans of other Germanic speaking cultures seem to feel this way as well from my experience.
No, that also how we consider ourselves geographically speaking. I myself always defended the idea that northern France was geographically in a sort of transition area.
What I have heard is that many English-speaking peoples would tend to feel/thought that France was a northern European country as UK, Netherlands or Germany are, and not always only the north part of it. And this was a surprise for me... while Germany seemed to many to be an Alpine region!
Well, many English people would not consider Germany, the Germans or the German language to be any less 'foreign' than France, the French or the French language. I didn't either until I actually went to Germany, and I know many people from England who would actually say that they feel a greater cultural affinity with France than with any country in Europe outside of the British Isles. On the other hand, I find that people usually see Spain/Spanish and Italy/Italian as being more 'foreign' than France/French and obviously Germany/German.
Now, in Norway, where good old-fashioned bourgeois Bildung is so lacking, you often get very funny opinions about this. People will often be surprised if you tell them that you feel a greater cultural affinity to Germany than to Syria or to France than Senegal, because for them everything that isn't Scandinavian or Anglophone is just equally foreign! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Well, many English people would not consider Germany, the Germans or the German language to be any less 'foreign' than France, the French or the French language. I didn't either until I actually went to Germany, and I know many people from England who would actually say that they feel a greater cultural affinity with France than with any country in Europe outside of the British Isles. On the other hand, I find that people usually see Spain/Spanish and Italy/Italian as being more 'foreign' than France/French and obviously Germany/German.
Well, my German stepbrother hardly considers the British to even be European -- he says they are a group unto themselves! Which is sort of the impression I've gotten from talking to various Brits -- they are often very ambivalent about the European thing. Some of it has to do with how much or how little they embrace EU membership, although "Europe" and "the EU" are different concepts, of course. Even the ones who embrace the EU seem like they really had to bite the bullet to take that plunge -- almost like an "I don't necessarily like it, but dammit, that's the future -- might as well" attitude (or at least a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude). More fatalistic than wholehearted. (With the exception of our Benjamin, of course. )
But I suppose that given the traditional British division of the place into "the UK" (us) and "the Continent" (everybody else), I suppose it's pretty understandable.
I think for Americans, all Europeans are equally foreign to us -- even the British and Irish are just foreigners that we can understand (sometimes). _________________ An apple a day....
It is strange that various countries or cultures group the Western European countries together differently. In Germany for example, Britain is not considered as Northern European, but just as Western European, although parts of Scotland stretches into the northern part.
Sehr interessant ! Moi aussi je considère l'Angleterre, le Pays-de-Galles et les Irlandes (libre & occupée) comme faisant partie, avant tout, de l'Europe occidentale. Le cas de l'Écosse est spécial. Western France, too, is the very quintessence of Europe occidentale, as is most of Northern Iberia.
Well, my German stepbrother hardly considers the British to even be European -- he says they are a group unto themselves! Which is sort of the impression I've gotten from talking to various Brits -- they are often very ambivalent about the European thing. Some of it has to do with how much or how little they embrace EU membership, although "Europe" and "the EU" are different concepts, of course. Even the ones who embrace the EU seem like they really had to bite the bullet to take that plunge -- almost like an "I don't necessarily like it, but dammit, that's the future -- might as well" attitude (or at least a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude). More fatalistic than wholehearted. (With the exception of our Benjamin, of course. )
But I suppose that given the traditional British division of the place into "the UK" (us) and "the Continent" (everybody else), I suppose it's pretty understandable.
I'd say that the 'we are not Europeans' attitude in Britain it is declining, as it is mainly an attitude that older people tend to have. Indeed, I regularly hear things mentioned on the radio where it is assumed that Britain is part of Europe — for example they might say on the news, 'according to new studies, Britain has the highest rate of ______ in Europe' or something. Likewise, I almost never hear anyone younger than about 50 say 'the Continent' — rather, they'd say 'mainland Europe' instead. Essentially, I believe that this is because many older people are still influenced by British Exceptionalism — the theory/belief that 'British culture' is distinct from 'European culture'. As far as I'm concerned, that belief is totally ridiculous and is supported neither by an historical perspective nor by any observation of reality, but it was a mainstream view in the 19th century. And since school textbooks can often be 30 years out of date... you get the idea.
What I've noticed is that British people are almost never both pro-EU and pro-US. There is very much a 'one or the other' attitude. There seems to be an overall sentiment that, ultimately, Britain will either become the 51st state of the United States of America, or will be part of a United States of Europe run by France and Germany. Neither option seems desirable to most people.
As for my attitude towards the European Union, I'd say that I'm cynical-positive. On the one hand, I think that it's excessively corrupt and I think that it has a neo-liberal economic agenda aimed at promoting the interests of large wealthy businesses and transnational corporations. But on the other hand, it has succeeded (more or less) in maintaining peace in Europe.
Moi aussi je considère l'Angleterre, le Pays-de-Galles et les Irlandes (libre & occupée) comme faisant partie, avant tout, de l'Europe occidentale.
Bien sur, mais autant ni plus que Les Pays-Bas, l'Allemagne, L'Espagne, L'Italie, la Scandinavie, etc... Tous sont ouest-Européens, bien que notre monde post-guerre froide ce term a pogressivement de moins en moins de sens.
Ou bien par "Europe occidentale" défini-tu plutot une acception restrictive, que l'on pourrait associer au monde "Atlantique" - Ceci à particulièrement du sens d'un point de vue purement géographique, en ce qui concerne les regions climatiques (et un certaine ambiance architecturale qui va avec) et biogeographiques (végétation), sur le plan linguistique et culturel celà n'a pas vraiment de sens.
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Le cas de l'Écosse est spécial.
Pourquoi ? j'associerait l'Ecosse plus facilement à cette Europe "Atlantique", que l'Angleterre, qui est plus dans l'Europe de la mer du nord.
D'ailleurs cette représentation de l'Europe en fonction non-pas des masses continentales mais de leur façades a pour moi pas mal de sens non plus - car historiquement beaucoup de peuples se sont organisés et influencés autour des mers partageant des caractéristiques géographiques similaires.
Voilà ce un exemple de ce que celà peut donner:
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Western France, too, is the very quintessence of Europe occidentale, as is most of Northern Iberia.
I would precice north-western France. I won't associate the south-west from Ile d'Yeu to Pays Basque with the "quintessential tipical atlantic" Europe as Britanny woul be: the ambiance is clearly different and the climate less atlantic, with more hot and mediterranean-influenced summers, most of the traditional architecture is of "mediterranean" look. which is not the case for Asturias and Galician coasts.
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