It's funny which images a clinical and neutral map can conjure up. Seeing greg's wonderful map, my eyes immediately sought the river of my childhood holiday paradise, Sira, and followed it to its paradisical source. It's the river just to the left of the little bump sticking out west of Norway's southwesternmost point - on height with Scottish John o' Groats:
That river, Sira, flows through the valley of Sirdal, a land of small beaver dams and enormous hydroelectrical power dams, cloudberries and happy holidays:
Looks quite similar to its Grampian counterpart on the othe side of the Norh Sea, doesn't it? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
What that map's made me realise is how tiny Scotland is compared to Norway. I often think of them as being sort of about the same size, because they're both 'small' countries with about the same population, although amazingly Norway actually has a larger area than the whole of Britain.
I almost always think Scandinavian countries as being big (excpted Denmark), even if not having a very important demographic weight.
Actually I think the UK as a powerful and major European country but has a relative small area compared to its importance, if not taking acount of Russia, it is 10th biggest European country for it size.
1 Ukraine 603,700
2 France 547,030
3 Spain 504,782
4 Sweden 449,964
5 Germany 357,021
6 Finland 337,030
7 Norway 324,220
8 Poland 312,685
9 Italy 301,230
10 United Kingdom 244,820
And as far as I know, Saint Patrick's Day isn't until March 17th -- you guzzling the green beer early this year?
Oops, I only got the 17th part, not the month part!
Benjamin wrote:
Quote:
What that map's made me realise is how tiny Scotland is compared to Norway. I often think of them as being sort of about the same size, because they're both 'small' countries with about the same population, although amazingly Norway actually has a larger area than the whole of Britain.
True. For us it sounds hilarious how Scots and perhaps even Britons actually can drive from the north to the south of their country in one day! Sounds like Denmark.... _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
True. For us it sounds hilarious how Scots and perhaps even Britons actually can drive from the north to the south of their country in one day!
actually, we can do it in France easily too. going from Paris to Nice for exemple needs about Nine hours by car. since my parents live there I regulary do it.
By train, it can be much quiker, only three hours are needed to join Paris to marseille.
In Belgium you can quickly go to the neighbour countries: from the northern border with Holland to the southern one with France I think it's about 90 minutes by car. From east (german or luxembourg border) to the west (coast) it's about 3-4 hours.
Probably because a lot of Ulster Scots emigrated to the US and had a profound impact on that country. I wonder if the religious fanaticism (Evangelical Christians etc.) in the US somehow can be traced back to Northern Ireland and the Protestant "siege mentality" you can find there....
Well Fredrik is right to some extent about the Scots-Irish influence on the development of American culture.
In the pre-revolutionary days, the Scotch-Irish were one of our largest immigrant ethnic groups, and the main group which settled in the American frontier, as opposed to the English settlers who often settled in densely packed New England towns.
The culture of Appalachia and large parts of the south (and by extension, parts of the Western U.S., due to later settlment by pioneers from this region), were populated by Scotch-Irish, and old Celtic ballad traditons and Scotch-Irish musical traditions helped to create modern day American "Country" music. The Scotch-Irish were the perfect frontiersmen as they were strongly religious protestants, fiercely independent and mistrusting of government, and zealous believers in freedom and personal liberty. They were great back-woodsmen as well, with their rifles and spirited history of warcraft.
My father's family is from Arkansas and Oklahoma, and his family was largely Scotch-Irish and Welsh. I think people tend to underestimate the impact that settlers from the "Celtic Fringe" played in the formation of modern day America.
There is a book I've been wanting to read called "The Celtic Thesis", which proports that the cultural origins of the south are more than just Anglo in origin, but more a mix of "Anglo-Celtic" influences, and that the proportion of the population of the south of "Celtic" ancestry (Welsh, Scottish, Ulster Scot, Irish) is greater than assumed. It was written by McWhiney and Forrest McDonald. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia about the book:
"McWhiney and Forrest McDonald were the authors of the "Celtic Thesis," which holds that most Southerners were of Celtic ancestry (as opposed to Anglo-Saxon), and that all groups he declared to be "Celtic" (Scots-Irish, Scottish, Welsh and others) were descended from warlike herdsmen, in contrast to the peaceful farmers who predominated in England. They traced numerous ways in which the Celtic culture shaped social, economic and military behavior. For example, they demonstrated that livestock raising (especially of cattle and hogs) developed a more individualistic, militant society than tilling the soil." _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
My father's family is from Arkansas and Oklahoma, and his family was largely Scotch-Irish and Welsh. I think people tend to underestimate the impact that settlers from the "Celtic Fringe" played in the formation of modern day America.
Except that the 'Scots-Irish' are largely descended from the Scottish Lowlands, and were traditionally Scots-speaking.
Porthos wrote:
McWhiney and Forrest McDonald were the authors of the "Celtic Thesis," which holds that most Southerners were of Celtic ancestry (as opposed to Anglo-Saxon), and that all groups he declared to be "Celtic" (Scots-Irish, Scottish, Welsh and others) were descended from warlike herdsmen, in contrast to the peaceful farmers who predominated in England. They traced numerous ways in which the Celtic culture shaped social, economic and military behavior. For example, they demonstrated that livestock raising (especially of cattle and hogs) developed a more individualistic, militant society than tilling the soil."
No offence, but thank you for convincing me not to bother reading that book. I'm sorry, but 'warlike Celtic herdsmen' and 'peaceful Anglo-Saxon farmers' sounds like a load of nonsense to me. The author also seems to be ignorant of the drastic differences in culture and lifestyle which existed between the Scottish Lowlands and the Scottish Highlands.
No offence, but thank you for convincing me not to bother reading that book. I'm sorry, but 'warlike Celtic herdsmen' and 'peaceful Anglo-Saxon farmers' sounds like a load of nonsense to me. The author also seems to be ignorant of the drastic differences in culture and lifestyle which existed between the Scottish Lowlands and the Scottish Highlands.
_________________
I know many people from England who would actually say that they feel a greater cultural affinity with France than with any country in Europe outside of the British Isles
on what precise point do they think they feel a cultural affinity ?
I know many people from England who would actually say that they feel a greater cultural affinity with France than with any country in Europe outside of the British Isles
on what precise point do they think they feel a cultural affinity ?
Well, some people here think that English is so different from Dutch and German, and that it has been so influenced by French and Latin, that it is actually more similar to French than to, say, Dutch. Indeed, I have often heard people try to argue that English is more Latin than Germanic, and people at school have traditionally learnt Latin as the classical language, apparently because it's supposed to give us 'a greater understanding of the English language' — whilst Old Saxon and suchlike has never seriously been considered. By extension, they might feel that England has been very heavily influenced by France.
Equally, middle-class, upper-middle-class and upper-class people from England have traditionally looked towards France for 'cultural inspiration'. Essentially, anything here that's considered to be 'high class' (especially food and wine) is usually of French origin.
Also, French has traditionally been (and still is) the first foreign language which people from England learn at school. Indeed, I believe that Oxford and/or Cambridge universities didn't even have a French department until about the 1920s because it was assumed that all the people likely to be attending those universities could already speak French fluently anyway. Even now, there is still an expectation that well educated people from England will have at least some knowledge of French.
And of course, France is by far the country which (at least middle class) people from England are most likely to visit. Germany no, although it has become sort of 'cool' since the World Cup.
Well, some people here think that English is so different from Dutch and German, and that it has been so influenced by French and Latin, that it is actually more similar to French than to, say, Dutch. Indeed, I have often heard people try to argue that English is more Latin than Germanic, and people at school have traditionally learnt Latin as the classical language, apparently because it's supposed to give us 'a greater understanding of the English language' — whilst Old Saxon and suchlike has never seriously been considered. By extension, they might feel that England has been very heavily influenced by France.
Equally, middle-class, upper-middle-class and upper-class people from England have traditionally looked towards France for 'cultural inspiration'. Essentially, anything here that's considered to be 'high class' (especially food and wine) is usually of French origin.
Also, French has traditionally been (and still is) the first foreign language which people from England learn at school. Indeed, I believe that Oxford and/or Cambridge universities didn't even have a French department until about the 1920s because it was assumed that all the people likely to be attending those universities could already speak French fluently anyway. Even now, there is still an expectation that well educated people from England will have at least some knowledge of French.
And of course, France is by far the country which (at least middle class) people from England are most likely to visit. Germany no, although it has become sort of 'cool' since the World Cup.
Yes, these are all things I see as well, although it applies more to England than to other English-speaking peoples I think. Because of all the reasons Benjamin listed, I used to think of England as having more in common with France than with Germany in a lot of ways. It wasn't until recently that my conceptions began to change on the matter. There is, and always has been a very strong Francophile sentiment in England. And more than anything, I think it's that snobbish members of English society want to identify with the French, as they see them as being more sophisticated, and look to them for cultural inspiration. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Because of all the reasons Benjamin listed, I used to think of England as having more in common with France than with Germany in a lot of ways.
I used to think that as well until I actually went to Germany.
Porthos wrote:
There is, and always has been a very strong Francophile sentiment in England. And more than anything, I think it's that snobbish members of English society want to identify with the French, as they see them as being more sophisticated, and look to them for cultural inspiration.
Absolutely. I've found that some people here seem to make this sort of association:
French or Latin = civilised, sophisticated, high class, romantic etc.
Germanic = German = 'we are not like the Germans, honest!' = dull, ugly, boring etc.
Well, we were supposed to be only a city. It was through an accident of circumstances that resulted in nationhood thrusted upon us! _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Also, French has traditionally been (and still is) the first foreign language which people from England learn at school. Indeed, I believe that Oxford and/or Cambridge universities didn't even have a French department until about the 1920s because it was assumed that all the people likely to be attending those universities could already speak French fluently anyway. Even now, there is still an expectation that well educated people from England will have at least some knowledge of French.
That was Oxford. They did not have a French language department until the 1930s.
Actually, I am also of the opinion that any educated gentleman should have at least reading knowledge of French. Of course, there is a distinction between men of education and an educated gentleman and I am speaking primarily of the latter. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Equally, middle-class, upper-middle-class and upper-class people from England have traditionally looked towards France for 'cultural inspiration'. Essentially, anything here that's considered to be 'high class' (especially food and wine) is usually of French origin.
I tend to agree with Porthos, it is a phenomenon quite tipical of only the upper classes of English-speaking countries to tend to have a francophilic attitude (at least for cultural things, while often very critical toward the people) - maybe for the reasons you spoke about; because a lot of "french things" are still seen as "high-class/snobbish", etc. and seemed to be wished by people who consider that to be "high-class", one must follow the image of what they think is "french"... while it is very distant to the reality of everyday in France. I don't think it is a tipical English attitude, I discovered it actually in the USA when I stayed in a upper class family, very tipical American people in all ways, but spending most of the time saying they wanted to taste drink this or that french wine, trying to place a lot of French words in their conversation (most of the time quite inapropriately)
I must say I am a bit fed up with that association. I wasn't aware before that "France" was put in such a piedestal by some English-speaking people before I realized that.
That was surprising, because I never had though our culture or language to have any snobbish/high-class thing in it - for exemple, for us wine has never been a "high class" drink, but has always been the tipical people drink - the one that make people drunk in bars ar at home with your everyday simple meal. The same way, for us our language has nothing more cultured than any other language - we love it because that's our and speaking it make us being ourselves - but it does not carries any snobisshness in it. Actually it would be the contrary : for exemple saying "living-room" instead of "séjour / salon" could be seen as very snobbish.
I think this image of "high-class" has grown in Britain, before been exported, due to the influence that the French court had over the international courts in the 18th and beguining of 19th century, before English took over French. In England, as a remembering of the normands foundators or the kingdom, french has still had a "aristocratic" importance - which it had not in France, were it was as much the poor street language than the courts one.
Quote:
Absolutely. I've found that some people here seem to make this sort of association:
French or Latin = civilised, sophisticated, high class, romantic etc.
Germanic = German = 'we are not like the Germans, honest!' = dull, ugly, boring etc.
... yourself ?
Quote:
Also, French has traditionally been (and still is) the first foreign language which people from England learn at school
well, English is the first language learned, and by far, in most countries of the world. That doesn't make those countries culturally with particular cultural affinities with England. There is a diference between a learned culture and cultural proximity of two cultures.
Quote:
There is, and always has been a very strong Francophile sentiment in England. And more than anything, I think it's that snobbish members of English society want to identify with the French, as they see them as being more sophisticated, and look to them for cultural inspiration
I agree that to some people of the English high society there is a "wish" to adopt some attitude they identify as being "french" - that is actually difficult to say that there is a strong francophilic feeling in England. England is famous to be very francophobic. the famous tabloids, whose prefered sport seem to be french-bashing, don't give me the feeling of a very francophilic country. I don't think that the francophobia of the British is a legend, I personally had my worst experiences abroad in England when I was teenager in "séjour linguistique" . That is the only place where I experienced real xenophobia - when people insult and spit at you without reason because of your nationality.
Since the Norman Conquest, England often seems to have looked upon itself as a sort of parallell nation to France, with a very dynamic relationship between them. Just remember for instance how their political systems were compared all the time and the gradual English revolution in the 17th century greatly inspired the French one.
Although Germany always has been hopelessly in love with its great ideal England (why don't why we have a Shakespeare? the Germans asked themselves before Goethe, why didn't we turn into a parliamentary democracy but went so hopelessly wrong? they asked after WW2 etc etc), England has paid very scant attention to its Saxon cousin. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
trying to place a lot of French words in their conversation (most of the time quite inapropriately)
Lol, even I don't to this, and I'm someone who actually would be able to use the French words properly.
Fab wrote:
Quote:
Absolutely. I've found that some people here seem to make this sort of association:
French or Latin = civilised, sophisticated, high class, romantic etc.
Germanic = German = 'we are not like the Germans, honest!' = dull, ugly, boring etc.
... yourself ?
I used to, yes. But I really love Germany and German now.
Actually, I realised that I was essentially German just over a year ago when I went to a conference with a lot of German students (as well as some Polish students and some other people from my school) in Poland. I had to learn some German very quickly before I went, which was interesting, because I had always been very pro-French/Spanish/Italian before, and had never really considered learning German. To my surprise, I found that it was almost like a very weird dialect of English, with lots of consonant and vowel shifts, and with a different word order. The German students looked, dressed, behaved and thought just like us. I found the whole experience rather emotional, since everything that I had ever been brought up to think about the Germans suddenly fell apart. I remember thinking: 'We fought two world wars with these people who are basically just the same as us!! What the hell was all that about?!?!' I enjoyed the conference, but afterwards I went home and cried.
All that is the reason for why I am now going to study German at university. Seriously, even though I've always been interested in languages, I would never really have considered learning German otherwise.
fab wrote:
I agree that to some people of the English high society there is a "wish" to adopt some attitude they identify as being "french" - that is actually difficult to say that there is a strong francophilic feeling in England. England is famous to be very francophobic. the famous tabloids, whose prefered sport seem to be french-bashing, don't give me the feeling of a very francophilic country.
I'm pleased that you recognise that attitudes are very different depending on the social class. I am always amazed to discover that so many people read the tabloids, because I personally don't know anyone who reads them. If anything, I think that that shows that the different social classes in England live very separate lives.
fab wrote:
I don't think that the francophobia of the British is a legend,
The British, or the English? Please make that distinction. Have you heard of the Auld Alliance? That is precisely the reason why Scottish people (of all social classes) usually have a much more positive attitude towards France.
fab wrote:
I personally had my worst experiences abroad in England when I was teenager in "séjour linguistique" . That is the only place where I experienced real xenophobia - when people insult and spit at you without reason because of your nationality.
Now do you understand why I want to renounce my nationality? Now do you understand why I intend to support Scottish independence when I live in Scotland? Because I don't want to have to be associated with these people.
It's not just French people who get abused here. I regularly hear stories of Americans being attacked in London. To be honest, I'd imagine that French people would have fewer problems than Americans now that there isn't much media focus on France anymore (a few years ago, France was heavily criticised for things like the Common Agricultural Policy).
Seriously, I know what England is like. As you can see, I have red hair. Let me tell you, from about the age of 5 to the age of 16, I experienced abuse every day at school because of the colour of my hair. People would shout insults at me, physically abuse me, spit at me etc. Although I don't have that problem at school anymore, random people still sometimes shout insults at me on the street.
It's now official, and I've essentially discovered for definite this week — I'm moving to Scotland in September, and I honestly hope that I never have to live in England on a long-term basis again.
Seriously, I know what England is like. As you can see, I have red hair. Let me tell you, from about the age of 5 to the age of 16, I experienced abuse every day at school because of the colour of my hair. People would shout insults at me, physically abuse me, spit at me etc. Although I don't have that problem at school anymore, random people still sometimes shout insults at me on the street.
I'm very sorry to hear that. And very surprised, I imagined red hair was a source of national pride in Britain.
Quote:
but afterwards I went home and cried.
Wow, Germanic brotherhood at its best! You really are Tonio Kröger!
_________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
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