And I've noticed in many direct translations from English to Scots, that Scots seems to simplify the vocabulary, using more every-day words, while English will use a Romance word like "influence".
Well, Scots does have a significant number of French and Latin loanwords like "malgre", and "ashet" (which don't exist in English) and this shows that Scots assimilated different Romance words from English.
Ce que dit Daniel est vrai. Et indique — si besoin était — que le Scots n'est absolument pas un dialecte anglais. On pourrait multiplier les faits probants avec l'évolution phonétique par exemple.
And I've noticed in many direct translations from English to Scots, that Scots seems to simplify the vocabulary, using more every-day words, while English will use a Romance word like "influence".
Well, Scots does have a significant number of French and Latin loanwords like "malgre", and "ashet" (which don't exist in English) and this shows that Scots assimilated different Romance words from English.
Ce que dit Daniel est vrai. Et indique — si besoin était — que le Scots n'est absolument pas un dialecte anglais. On pourrait multiplier les faits probants avec l'évolution phonétique par exemple.
Exactement ! Modern Scots and Modern English both split from Anglo-Saxon separately just as Portuguese and Spanish did from Vulgar Latin (am I right here?) And because of that, they both assimilated loanwords differently from the same languages (especially French, Latin and Greek).
Bear in mind also that Scotland was France's alliance. Scotland and France had one thing in common: they both hated England. After 1066, Old English started taking words from French and used those words to create sophisticated meaning of various degrees: (for example: sheep - mutton, etc.) Scots, like Dutch or German, still regularly employs compound nouns using its native Germanic-based words (for example: "ootgang" and "ingang" for "exit" and "entrance"), although it did assimilate a lot of French words but it mostly used them differently from English.
Remember that Scotland, where Scots was widely spoken (particularly in the south: Scots Gaelic was spoken in the north), was independent of England until the Union in the 18th century. This means that clearly Scots could not have been a dialect of English! I think it strange that when Scotland and England became united, people today start to believe that Scots is a dialect of English. I mean, what? Since when? Why? Because those two countries became united?
It's like saying that Dutch is suddenly a dialect of German because the Netherlands and Germany have become united. Or Chinese a dialect of Japanese because China has become part of the Japanese empire... Or Haitian Creole a subdialect of Piedmontese because for some weird reason Haiti is a colony of Italy.
I think it's sad that nowadays, Scots as it is spoken in reality is quite... mangled and messy thanks to the influence of English imposed in the past when Scots was looked down as the corrupt form of English (just because it was so closely related to English that people assume they were somewhat dumb and didn't know how to speak "English" properly!) that should not be encouraged. Also before English was imposed upon the Scots speakers, Scots did not really have an own spelling system so it started using English principles to write down Scots. Hence, "ane" (for "one"). If Scots adopted a unique spelling system then "ane" could have been something like "aen" or "ein" or "eyn" or "ejn", etc. making it look more different from English. And I think that at a glance, more people will agree that it's a more distinctive language from English.
People have been cruelly punished in schools just for speaking in their native tongue (even as recently as 1970s - one boy once had his mouth taped to stop him from speaking in Scots). I read that when standard English was introduced in a school somewhere in Glasgow (which was predominantly staunchly Scots-speaking) by a teacher because of a law requiring all children to speak in standard English and all education to be conducted in standard English those children didn't understand what the teacher was saying.
Obviously, nowadays, all Scots speakers understand and use standard English, in formal situations (ie. job interviews). I think it's misleading that just because they understand standard English themselves it means that Scots is a dialect of English - they only understand standard English because they have to since it's the main language in use all over the UK. You have to remember that Scots is rarely encountered outside Scotland, so it's not surprising that many standard English speakers who visit Scotland get stumped when spoken to in Scots.
When I was in the USA visiting my aunt and cousins, I once spoke to my family in Scots in front of them and they even asked "What language is that?" They didn't understand a single word.
Incidentally, my Dutch boyfriend understood me perfectly when I spoke a short random phrase in Scots because it sounded almost the same in Dutch! (Nae, ane dochter an ane stane wi the licht are here = Nee, een dochter en een steen met de licht zijn hier). _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:
Slightly off-topic: Another result of the French-Scottish alliance was the influence of the French court dance (early ballet) on Scottish figure dances (called country dancing now) -- legs and feet rotated outward, feet pointed when they're off the ground, some steps similar to steps in ballet. The same applies to highland dancing.
Slightly off-topic: Another result of the French-Scottish alliance was the influence of the French court dance (early ballet) on Scottish figure dances (called country dancing now) -- legs and feet rotated outward, feet pointed when they're off the ground, some steps similar to steps in ballet. The same applies to highland dancing.
C'est marrant comme les mots vont et viennent.
Danse de la contrée → country dance → contredanse → contredance/contredanse.
Not to mention spelling variation...
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:46 am Post subject:
greg in noord-frankrijk wrote:
C'est marrant comme les mots vont et viennent.
Danse de la contrée → country dance → contredanse → contredance/contredanse.
Not to mention spelling variation...
For some reason, in the US the "contradance" (or contra dance) spelling is used, even though England uses "country dance".
And I've noticed in many direct translations from English to Scots, that Scots seems to simplify the vocabulary, using more every-day words, while English will use a Romance word like "influence".
Well, Scots does have a significant number of French and Latin loanwords like "malgre", and "ashet" (which don't exist in English) and this shows that Scots assimilated different Romance words from English.
Ce que dit Daniel est vrai. Et indique — si besoin était — que le Scots n'est absolument pas un dialecte anglais. On pourrait multiplier les faits probants avec l'évolution phonétique par exemple.
Exactement ! Modern Scots and Modern English both split from Anglo-Saxon separately just as Portuguese and Spanish did from Vulgar Latin (am I right here?) And because of that, they both assimilated loanwords differently from the same languages (especially French, Latin and Greek).
Bear in mind also that Scotland was France's alliance. Scotland and France had one thing in common: they both hated England. After 1066, Old English started taking words from French and used those words to create sophisticated meaning of various degrees: (for example: sheep - mutton, etc.) Scots, like Dutch or German, still regularly employs compound nouns using its native Germanic-based words (for example: "ootgang" and "ingang" for "exit" and "entrance"), although it did assimilate a lot of French words but it mostly used them differently from English.
Remember that Scotland, where Scots was widely spoken (particularly in the south: Scots Gaelic was spoken in the north), was independent of England until the Union in the 18th century. This means that clearly Scots could not have been a dialect of English! I think it strange that when Scotland and England became united, people today start to believe that Scots is a dialect of English. I mean, what? Since when? Why? Because those two countries became united?
It's like saying that Dutch is suddenly a dialect of German because the Netherlands and Germany have become united. Or Chinese a dialect of Japanese because China has become part of the Japanese empire... Or Haitian Creole a subdialect of Piedmontese because for some weird reason Haiti is a colony of Italy.
I think it's sad that nowadays, Scots as it is spoken in reality is quite... mangled and messy thanks to the influence of English imposed in the past when Scots was looked down as the corrupt form of English (just because it was so closely related to English that people assume they were somewhat dumb and didn't know how to speak "English" properly!) that should not be encouraged. Also before English was imposed upon the Scots speakers, Scots did not really have an own spelling system so it started using English principles to write down Scots. Hence, "ane" (for "one"). If Scots adopted a unique spelling system then "ane" could have been something like "aen" or "ein" or "eyn" or "ejn", etc. making it look more different from English. And I think that at a glance, more people will agree that it's a more distinctive language from English.
People have been cruelly punished in schools just for speaking in their native tongue (even as recently as 1970s - one boy once had his mouth taped to stop him from speaking in Scots). I read that when standard English was introduced in a school somewhere in Glasgow (which was predominantly staunchly Scots-speaking) by a teacher because of a law requiring all children to speak in standard English and all education to be conducted in standard English those children didn't understand what the teacher was saying.
Obviously, nowadays, all Scots speakers understand and use standard English, in formal situations (ie. job interviews). I think it's misleading that just because they understand standard English themselves it means that Scots is a dialect of English - they only understand standard English because they have to since it's the main language in use all over the UK. You have to remember that Scots is rarely encountered outside Scotland, so it's not surprising that many standard English speakers who visit Scotland get stumped when spoken to in Scots.
When I was in the USA visiting my aunt and cousins, I once spoke to my family in Scots in front of them and they even asked "What language is that?" They didn't understand a single word.
Incidentally, my Dutch boyfriend understood me perfectly when I spoke a short random phrase in Scots because it sounded almost the same in Dutch! (Nae, ane dochter an ane stane wi the licht are here = Nee, een dochter en een steen met de licht zijn hier).
It's not so much that people assume it's a dialect of English, but another dialect of Anglo-Saxon, just as Northumbrian English is considered an English dialect. And when I said it was nearly 100% intelligable in written forum, I was thinking of most of the written Scots I've read, which is very different from your personal spelling. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Scots is the language o the Lallan Scotland an the northren isles. It is also yaised in pairts o Ulster. Mainly a spoken language, it has a nummer o dialects, ilkane wi its ain chairacter. Alang wi Scottish English an Gaelic, it is ane o the three main languages o Scotland the noo.
Whaur did it come frae?
Scots cam first fae the Northren Auld English that the Angles brocht tae the south-east o whit is noo Scotland in the seevent century. They were amang the Germanic-speakin fowk that cam tae the British Isles fae the fift century on. English also cam fae the language o thae fowk.
By the eleevent century, Gaelic, the language that the Scots had brocht wi them fae Northren Ireland, wis the main language in the feck o the kinrick. Bit suie there wis anither kin o Northren English in Scotland, spoken by the fowk that cam wi the Anglo-Norman lairds an the new monasteries that had cam north frae whit is noo Yorkshire. That area had been pairt o the Danelaw an its language had monie Scandinavian wirds, monie o them still yaised in Scots (an Northren English) the day (e.g. gate street, kirk church).
Hoo did it develop?
This language did weel in Scotland, wi the growin tred in the new burghs, an as time went by new wirds cam in: frae French (e.g. ashet serving plate, douce quiet, respectable), Laitin (e.g, dominie schoolmaster, preses chairman), Dutch (e.g. loun lad, redd clear, tidy) an Gaelic (e.g. glen narrow valley, whisky). Afore the saxteent century it wis usually cried 'Inglis' (an 'Scottis' meant Gaelic), but fae then on it cam tae be kent as 'Scottis'. At this time, in the Stewart period, it wis gettin a standart form in writin, juist as the East-Midland dialect o English wis becomin a 'national' form o English in Tudor England. An this was the time o the great medieval makars lik Robert Henrysoun, William Dunbar, Gavin Douglas and David Lyndsay.
Whit happent tae it?
Efter the Scottish Reformation (1560), the Union o the Crouns (1603) and the Union o the Pairliaments (1707), southren English becam mair an mair the language o formal speech and writin an Scots cam tae be seen as a 'group o dialects' raither nor a 'language'. Houaniver it wis still the main wey o speakin for the feck o Lawland Scots, an it wis yaised in fine poetry, sangs an tales. Abune them aa in the eichteent century is Robert Burns, noo kent warldwide.
Whaur is it the noo?
Nooadays ye'll can hear Scots speakit an fowk yaisin Scots wirds in maist pairts o the kintra, in monie different dialects. Monie fowk are thirlt tae the language and are maist at ease whan they are yaisin it wi their faimilies and freends. Monie Scots speak a mixture o Scots an English, some maistly Scots an ithers maistly English. I this wey the language is in a continuum wi Scottish Standart English.
Efter lang centuries o neglect and opposeetion, Scots is now regairdit as an important pairt o Scotland's heritage an culture. It has been recognisit as a language unner the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages an, mair an mair, fowk kens hoo valuable it is. In recent years monie writers hae written in Scots, some o them in their ain dialects, an new technology lats Scots say mair than iver afore in their ain language in monie different weys.
Whit is its future?
Excellent books an teachin materials are being produced tae encourage the uise o Scots among the young. Changin attitudes an mair respect for diversity has brocht support for the language. Hooaniver, mair still needs tae be daen an the development by the Scottish government o specific policies tae support Scots wad be a great lowp forrit.
The above is a text in Scots, and as an English speaker, I could understand nearly 100% of it with ease. It looks just like English written with a Scottish accent. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Notice I'm not claiming it to be a dialect of "English", but merely a dialect in the same way that "Standard English" is a dialect of the English language.
It doesn't have a formal written standard, just like other "dialects" in Britain, although these dialects, which are on a continuum with English, are not considered seperate languages.
It seems like most Scots, including your own father, code switch between Scots and standard Scottish English, just as speakers of regional dialects do in England or the U.S. If they can code-switch in mid-sentence, then this seems an awful lot like a dialect to me. IMHO, there is very little difference between many dialects of Scottish English and "Scots". At what point is the language "Scots", and no longer a regional dialect of English? Can anyone define the boundary line? If not, then I'm afraid this once again makes it appear to be a dialect. Like Scottish English, Scots utilizes roughly the same vocabulary as English, yet pronounces words differently, along with a small number of words unique to the region, just as Scottish English uses words not used in south-eastern England.
The comparision cannot be made between Scots-English, and Spanish-Portuguese, for that is like comparing apples to oranges. Although Portuguese is very similar to Spanish, it is not nearly as similar in written form as Scots is to English, where as in the text I provided, almost 100% of the vocab was nearly identical, with only two are three words not actually recognizable to an English speaker. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
It doesn't have a formal written standard, just like other "dialects" in Britain, although these dialects, which are on a continuum with English, are not considered seperate languages.
Whether a language has a a single written standard or not is irrelevant. Luxembourgish didn't until the 1980s, for example. And you might also have noticed that English does not have one written standard either.
Porthos wrote:
It seems like most Scots, including your own father, code switch between Scots and standard Scottish English, just as speakers of regional dialects do in England or the U.S.
That's probably true, yes.
Porthos wrote:
If they can code-switch in mid-sentence, then this seems an awful lot like a dialect to me.
What's the basis for that assertion? I can code-switch mid-sentence between English and French — actually, that's how my 'main' French friend and I usually speak to each-other.
Porthos wrote:
IMHO, there is very little difference between many dialects of Scottish English and "Scots". At what point is the language "Scots", and no longer a regional dialect of English? Can anyone define the boundary line? If not, then I'm afraid this once again makes it appear to be a dialect. Like Scottish English, Scots utilizes roughly the same vocabulary as English, yet pronounces words differently, along with a small number of words unique to the region, just as Scottish English uses words not used in south-eastern England.
As has been mentioned before, the distinction between 'language' and 'dialect' is rather arbitrary and highly political.
Porthos wrote:
The comparision cannot be made between Scots-English, and Spanish-Portuguese, for that is like comparing apples to oranges.
I actually think it's very comparable.
Porthos wrote:
Although Portuguese is very similar to Spanish, it is not nearly as similar in written form as Scots is to English, where as in the text I provided, almost 100% of the vocab was nearly identical, with only two are three words not actually recognizable to an English speaker.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the written form, which is essentially an artificial creation. As Daniel mentioned above, there has been a tradition of basing Scots orthography on English orthography as far as possible.
Porthos wrote:
The comparision cannot be made between Scots-English, and Spanish-Portuguese, for that is like comparing apples to oranges.
I actually think it's very comparable.
Hardly. I don't understand nearly as much Portuguese as I do Scots. I can understand about 70% of Portuguese in written form, and far less than that in spoken form, while at least in written forum, I can understand nearly 100% of Scots.
Quote:
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the written form, which is essentially an artificial creation. As Daniel mentioned above, there has been a tradition of basing Scots orthography on English orthography as far as possible.
But this is my point. Scots chooses to use a system of orthography largely following the phonetics of English, precisely because it never had a standard of its own, and instead adopted the standard English one just as many dialects of English did.
If Northumbrians wrote English the way they actually pronounced their words, it wouldn't be much closer to standard English than a southern dialect of Scots would be. But we don't walk around calling Northumbrian English a seperate language. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Hardly. I don't understand nearly as much Portuguese as I do Scots. I can understand about 70% of Portuguese in written form, and far less than that in spoken form, while at least in written forum, I can understand nearly 100% of Scots.
Fair enough, although Spanish is not your native language, so it's not quite the same thing. However, I accept that a better comparison might be with Swedish/Danish/Norwegian than with Spanish/Portuguese.
Porthos wrote:
But this is my point. Scots chooses to use a system of orthography largely following the phonetics of English, precisely because it never had a standard of its own, and instead adopted the standard English one just as many dialects of English did.
Well, following the Act of Union in 1707, the question arose as to whether Scottish people should speak English or Scots. (Scottish Gaelic was never considered as an option at the time). Unsurprisingly, since this new 'Great Britain' was dominated by ruling élites from Southeast England, it was decided that they should speak 'English'. This resulted in English being imposed on Scotland, and, as Daniel mentioned, Scots was largely dismissed as 'bad English' until relatively recently.
There are then a variety of theories as to what the result of all this has been. Some have claimed that the speech of (Lowland) Scottish people gradually became more and more English-like by process of assimilation. Others have suggested that the people became largely bilingual, able to use Scottish English in formal situations, and Scots in more informal situations.
Porthos wrote:
If Northumbrians wrote English the way they actually pronounced their words, it wouldn't be much closer to standard English than a southern dialect of Scots would be.
Yes, that's true.
Porthos wrote:
But we don't walk around calling Northumbrian English a seperate language.
My mother code-switches between Tagalog (a Malayo-Polynesian language) and English frequently. Does that mean Tagalog is a dialect of English?
And just because Scots uses English principles to write the language, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a dialect of English. Scots could've easily used Dutch spelling system or... German... or Luxembourgish.
Hmm... If I used the Dutch spelling system to write a Scots phrase: Nee, een steen an een dochter wi de licht (instead of "Ane stane an ane dochter wi the licht"). It'll look almost identical to the Dutch "Een steen en een dochter met de licht." Does that mean Scots is closer to Dutch than it is to English?
What Benjamin has stated in here is very largely accurate. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
Scots is the language o the Lallan Scotland an the northren isles. It is also yaised in pairts o Ulster. Mainly a spoken language, it has a nummer o dialects, ilkane wi its ain chairacter. Alang wi Scottish English an Gaelic, it is ane o the three main languages o Scotland the noo.
Whaur did it come frae?
Scots cam first fae the Northren Auld English that the Angles brocht tae the south-east o whit is noo Scotland in the seevent century. They were amang the Germanic-speakin fowk that cam tae the British Isles fae the fift century on. English also cam fae the language o thae fowk.
By the eleevent century, Gaelic, the language that the Scots had brocht wi them fae Northren Ireland, wis the main language in the feck o the kinrick. Bit suie there wis anither kin o Northren English in Scotland, spoken by the fowk that cam wi the Anglo-Norman lairds an the new monasteries that had cam north frae whit is noo Yorkshire. That area had been pairt o the Danelaw an its language had monie Scandinavian wirds, monie o them still yaised in Scots (an Northren English) the day (e.g. gate street, kirk church).
Hoo did it develop?
This language did weel in Scotland, wi the growin tred in the new burghs, an as time went by new wirds cam in: frae French (e.g. ashet serving plate, douce quiet, respectable), Laitin (e.g, dominie schoolmaster, preses chairman), Dutch (e.g. loun lad, redd clear, tidy) an Gaelic (e.g. glen narrow valley, whisky). Afore the saxteent century it wis usually cried 'Inglis' (an 'Scottis' meant Gaelic), but fae then on it cam tae be kent as 'Scottis'. At this time, in the Stewart period, it wis gettin a standart form in writin, juist as the East-Midland dialect o English wis becomin a 'national' form o English in Tudor England. An this was the time o the great medieval makars lik Robert Henrysoun, William Dunbar, Gavin Douglas and David Lyndsay.
Whit happent tae it?
Efter the Scottish Reformation (1560), the Union o the Crouns (1603) and the Union o the Pairliaments (1707), southren English becam mair an mair the language o formal speech and writin an Scots cam tae be seen as a 'group o dialects' raither nor a 'language'. Houaniver it wis still the main wey o speakin for the feck o Lawland Scots, an it wis yaised in fine poetry, sangs an tales. Abune them aa in the eichteent century is Robert Burns, noo kent warldwide.
Whaur is it the noo?
Nooadays ye'll can hear Scots speakit an fowk yaisin Scots wirds in maist pairts o the kintra, in monie different dialects. Monie fowk are thirlt tae the language and are maist at ease whan they are yaisin it wi their faimilies and freends. Monie Scots speak a mixture o Scots an English, some maistly Scots an ithers maistly English. I this wey the language is in a continuum wi Scottish Standart English.
Efter lang centuries o neglect and opposeetion, Scots is now regairdit as an important pairt o Scotland's heritage an culture. It has been recognisit as a language unner the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages an, mair an mair, fowk kens hoo valuable it is. In recent years monie writers hae written in Scots, some o them in their ain dialects, an new technology lats Scots say mair than iver afore in their ain language in monie different weys.
Whit is its future?
Excellent books an teachin materials are being produced tae encourage the uise o Scots among the young. Changin attitudes an mair respect for diversity has brocht support for the language. Hooaniver, mair still needs tae be daen an the development by the Scottish government o specific policies tae support Scots wad be a great lowp forrit.
The above is a text in Scots, and as an English speaker, I could understand nearly 100% of it with ease. It looks just like English written with a Scottish accent.
By the way, the text above looks awfully English-influenced (too many English words disguised in Scots spelling - for example, "century" isn't actually Scots - it should be "yearhunnert". It looks as though the person typing it doesn't know enough Scots to make it authentic. And the grammar looks too much English-influenced as well.
Plus "language" doesn't have the exact meaning as in English (false friend). The proper word for "language" in Scots, when used to refer to any language in general, is "leid".
Moreover, spelling in formal texts in Scots should be consistent and either one of the "standard" of Doric or Lallans, not random or inconsistent (it used "amang" and "among", and "and" and "an". For example, Scots would never use "books" but "buiken" or "buiks".
Words ending in "-y" such as "diversity", "minority" or the adverbial ending "-ly" is spelled "-ie" in Scots, never the English way.
I think the text above is written by someone who isn't really fluent and is probably using a dialect that leans far towards English.
Because of a continuum of Scots dialects where certain dialects could be either too close to or influenced by English, you should just keep gathering, becaue there are many people, particularly in Aberdeenshire, who speak dialects that are definitely incomprehensible to outsiders (even to other Scots speakers)!
One of my friends who was born and bred in Inverness speaks Standard Scottish English (Inverness does not have a native Scots dialect because it's traditionally a Gaelic speaking area - although there are a few Doric speakers) but generally understands Scots language via media from the south (mainly Lallans dialect). Well, when he moved to work in the call centre for the ambulance service in Aberdeen, he was so frustrated because he could not understand a single word the locals were saying on the phone to him (since they speak a very distinctive Doric dialect - probably in the dialect almost free of any English influence). He had to quit and move back to Inverness again. He said the dialect sounded so foreign that if people did not know any better they could've sworn it was some kind of Norwegian dialect!
There is even a distinct Scots dialect spoken in the Orcadian islands (Orkney and Shetlands) and when I heard those dialects for the first time, I couldn't understand them fully! I play folk music on my fiddle and I play many Shetlandic folk tunes whose titles are in the dialects and I don't understand the meanings of those titles (such as "Da Shaalds O Foula"). These distinct dialects have been heavily influenced by Norn (an extinct language closely related to Faroese) brought to the islands by the Norwegians years and years ago.
EDIT: I had a look at the website where the text was extracted from. Well, it seems that it was written like that because it had to be read and understood by every Scots speaker since there is no standard dialect (for example, you would use English (standard dialect) if you want everybody to understand it and not a Mancunian or a Northumbrian dialect. If it was written only in Doric, a north-eastern dialect, then chances are not every Lallans speaker will understand it due to vocabulary or grammar differences. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
It seems to me that the primary difference between Scots and standard English is a difference in pronounciation, with Scots' phonology heavily influenced by Gaelic, much the same way Scottish-English is. They're using the same bulk of words that I would use, only with a very thick, often unintelligable accent. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
It seems to me that the primary difference between Scots and standard English is a difference in pronounciation, with Scots' phonology heavily influenced by Gaelic, much the same way Scottish-English is. They're using the same bulk of words that I would use, only with a very thick, often unintelligable accent.
(Emphasis mine)
Well there you go. Does that now answer the question you posed at the start of this thread?
(Although I dispute the assertion that the difference in phonology between Scots and 'Standard British English' is mainly because of Gaelic influence in Scots).
It seems to me that the primary difference between Scots and standard English is a difference in pronounciation, with Scots' phonology heavily influenced by Gaelic, much the same way Scottish-English is. They're using the same bulk of words that I would use, only with a very thick, often unintelligable accent.
You seem to suggest that a word like "maist" (most) is merely a dialectal word spelled just like this solely because of an accent, thus supporting your argument that Scots is a dialect of English.
German and Dutch are not considered dialects of each other and yet they have many words that could be, according to your logic, argued as just variants of the same word just because of an accent. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
It seems to me that the primary difference between Scots and standard English is a difference in pronounciation, with Scots' phonology heavily influenced by Gaelic, much the same way Scottish-English is. They're using the same bulk of words that I would use, only with a very thick, often unintelligable accent.
You seem to suggest that a word like "maist" (most) is merely a dialectal word spelled just like this solely because of an accent, thus supporting your argument that Scots is a dialect of English.
German and Dutch are not considered dialects of each other and yet they have many words that could be, according to your logic, argued as just variants of the same word just because of an accent.
Well there are a lot of words pronounced very differently from the standard English-English form reflected in standard English spelling within Scottish English as well. Does that make them foreign words?
Canadians will say "aboot" instead of "about", but we know it to be the same word, only with an accent, and as such, it is spelled the same way. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
(Although I dispute the assertion that the difference in phonology between Scots and 'Standard British English' is mainly because of Gaelic influence in Scots).
The rolled 'r's and many other features of Scots can be attributed to the fact that the areas currently occupied by Scots speakers were once Celtic speaking. They spoke Brytonnic in the lowlands, until the arrival of the Angles, who historians and anthropologists estimate at numbering no more than 10% of the population of the lowlands. Before the arrival of the Angles en masse, Gaelic was spread throughout the lowlands due to political conquest, until it was gradually replaced throughout the lowlands by Anglo-Saxon (Inglis), or (Northumbrian-English).
Brytonnic substratum - Goedlic --> Scots imposed on Celtic speakers
Many of the phonological differences between Scots and English also occur in Scottish English, including the dialects of the Highlands, where Gaelic was traditionally spoken, suggesting a link between certain phonological attributes. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Well there are a lot of words pronounced very differently from the standard English-English form reflected in standard English spelling within Scottish English as well. Does that make them foreign words?
Canadians will say "aboot" instead of "about", but we know it to be the same word, only with an accent, and as such, it is spelled the same way.
The concept of 'foreign words' is pretty alien to linguistics, I'm afraid. There are many words which exist in both 'English' and 'German', for example, with the same spelling (except that nouns begin with a capital letter in German) and very nearly the same pronunciation, such as hand, land, finger, sing, spring, winter, wind... not to mention many others which are very similar, e.g. bed/Bett, house/Haus, mouse/Maus, hound/Hund, lamb/Lamm, light/Licht... and less obvious ones such as day/Tag, door/Tür, half/halb, calf/Kalb, help/helfe, harp/Harf, sharp/scharf, sleep/schlafe, deep/tief, weighty/wichtig, daughter/Tochter, deaf/taub etc. (There are literally thousands of these).
Porthos wrote:
The rolled 'r's and many other features of Scots can be attributed to the fact that the areas currently occupied by Scots speakers were once Celtic speaking.
Not specifically. Virtually all English dialects included a 'rolled R' until a few hundred years ago.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
After 1066, Old English started taking words from French and used those words to create sophisticated meaning of various degrees: (for example: sheep - mutton, etc.) Scots, like Dutch or German, still regularly employs compound nouns using its native Germanic-based words (for example: "ootgang" and "ingang" for "exit" and "entrance"), although it did assimilate a lot of French words but it mostly used them differently from English.
