I can tell you the Poles like their vowels very much. But they have a habit of putting sibilants everywhere No really the text looks strange, that's true but most of the letters are combined two or sometimes even three letters for one sound.
I told I never learned to read or write, that's not entirely true. My mom has a dictionary with a pronounciation key in the preface. one day I tried to read a polish book we had. I tried to read out loud what was written there (according to the pronounciation key) and I managed to get the gist of the first sentence ... so I thought. Then someday my aunt read the first page for us (a book for little children) and at an instant it all made sense.
A littel of topic ... maybe not that far:
About a month ago now, I was visiting my cousin (for her birthday) whose mother happens to be the said aunt. Some of the polish relatives of my aunt were there too and so was I with my parents and my sister. Quite a strange situation: Most of us were able to speak to each other either in Polish or German but we had those 4 people who had either german or polish. My father and my sister only speak German my aunts mother and sister only speak Polish. So all of the time we had 2 people in the room who could not understand what was spoken around them (Well tree people but my niece is only one year old and has hardly any language )
We ended using some crude mix of both languages whenever we were all on the table but I think that only added to the confusion. Most of the time my sister was with my nieces because of that. My father ... well he doesn't care much about not understanding but my aunt's sister and mother were quite uncomfortable whenever the conversation switched to german and we always had to give translations.
Das ist schon lustig, in einer Familie zwei Sprachen zu haben, und Leute die einander nicht verstehen können Leider in meiner Familie kommt niemand aus dem Ausland, welche Schade ist!!!! Vielleicht wird ein meiner Geschwister mit jemand aus einem anderen Land verheiraten, dann wird is interessanter. Es kann sein, dass meine älteste Schwester das tut, weil sie nach dem Studium in Belgien nach der US fahren möchte um weiter dort zu studieren. Aber, sie ist noch nicht mit ihrem Studium angefangen also es kann noch anders werden.
Ich habe gelesen, was du für deine Zukunftige Ratten bauen möchtest: toll !!!! meinst du etwas wie ein Webcam, worauf du Bilder von ihnen konstant kucken kannst? das wäre *sehr* niedlich sein, und wenn deine Kollegen gemein sind, kannst du die süsse Ratten sehen.
BTW the population shifts that took place in Germany's eastern areas after WW2 is one of my favourite tragedies, because it's so hard to say who were villains and who were victims. People born in Bohemia, East Prussia, Silesia etc. who today live in Germany and are slightly bitter for the loss of their childhood homes and perhaps a little irredentist in their hearts, how they must hate their parents', whose support for Hitler led to them, innocent little children, having to flee the dear Pomeranian home, with its long sandy beaches, clear blue lakes and cute little brick towns.
And what do you say to the fact that the association of Germans expelled from the Czech Sudetenland has their own youth organization!!!:
http://www.sudetendeutschejugend.de/
Fredrik,
I suggest that you get interested in population shifts that took place in eastern areas of Poland after WWII.
The country invaded from both sides - Germany and Soviet Union - in the meantime experienced genocide from the Ukrainian nationalists: >200 000 casualties in 1943-1944, very few people know about it, even in Poland.
In 1945, betrayed by their former allies Churchill & Roosvelt, they had to abandon their homeland (it was included to what is now western Belarus and Ukraine) and go to the areas that belonged to Germany before WWII but to Poland in the middle ages (except for East Prussia).
It was to be a "gift" from Stalin as a compensation for the lost eastern land.
They had to live in incertitutde because they thought it was only temporary and that one day Germans would return and expel them.
Now they still suffer, maybe more than ever, when they hear that "it's hard to say who were villains and who were victims".
And the prodigial son has returned to the bosom of the family.
Welcome back, KSA!!
Welcome Loic, welcome all!
Glad I'm here again!
Benjamin, have a nice time in Poland but remember to bring warm clothes and ski if you want- it's real winter here with minus 10 and abundance of snow.
They say it will change in the coming week but it's actually quite cold now.
At least in eastern Poland, I don't know what's going on in Wrocław.
Now they still suffer, maybe more than ever, when they hear that "it's hard to say who were villains and who were victims".
Well, of course it's obvious that Stalin + his bigwig cronies and all the East Prussians, Pomeranians, Silesians etc. who supported Hitler are guilty villains. What I meant was: When a dispossed Eastern Pole evicted by Stalin knocks on the door in Pomerania and gets the house and an innocent German child has to leave his or her childhood home - who is then the victim?
For our American friends: This is one of those sad European situations, where the victims on both sides, those who had to pay the price for the madness, just break down in fraternal pity and swear "Never again such madness!", no matter how much the EU must be allowed to replace the nation states in order to enforce that.
My impressions of the post WWII population shifts in Eastern Europe are, because I know German and not Polish, from a German perspective; and in the German treatment of it, the lost "Heimat" plays a huge role. But the non-German side of the story is of course just as interesting. In Freiburg one year ago I had very long and interesting discussions with my Czech flatmate about the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland. But the Sudeten Germans were Czechoslovakians who had betrayed their state, so the situation in Poland was of course quite different. Glad that you've popped up again and can give us the Polish perspective now, KSa! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Now they still suffer, maybe more than ever, when they hear that "it's hard to say who were villains and who were victims".
Well, of course it's obvious that Stalin + his bigwig cronies and all the East Prussians, Pomeranians, Silesians etc. who supported Hitler are guilty villains. What I meant was: When a dispossed Eastern Pole evicted by Stalin knocks on the door in Pomerania and gets the house and an innocent German child has to leave his or her childhood home - who is then the victim?
For our American friends: This is one of those sad European situations, where the victims on both sides, those who had to pay the price for the madness, just break down in fraternal pity and swear "Never again such madness!", no matter how much the EU must be allowed to replace the nation states in order to enforce that.
My impressions of the post WWII population shifts in Eastern Europe are, because I know German and not Polish, from a German perspective; and in the German treatment of it, the lost "Heimat" plays a huge role. But the non-German side of the story is of course just as interesting. In Freiburg one year ago I had very long and interesting discussions with my Czech flatmate about the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland. But the Sudeten Germans were Czechoslovakians who had betrayed their state, so the situation in Poland was of course quite different. Glad that you've popped up again and can give us the Polish perspective now, KSa!
Fredrik,
I deeply sympathise with the innocent Germans who were forced to leave their homeland. This is what I call "the irony of history". On the other hand, we should not forget who started this war, even though ordinary people had often nothing to do with it. Still we should keep in mind that Hitler was elected democratically with an abundance of votes just in the East Prussia.
Still I stres the situation of real victims, i.e. Poles.
They didn't come to Prussia or Pomerania because they wanted to but they were expeled from their beloved homeland which we call "Kresy" and were forced by the new communist power to settle in the new land. They had no choice and they inhabited already deserted lands. They didn't expel anyone.
Who is to be blamed?
Stalin - that's sure. He made it clear during Yalta conference. And Churchill together with Roosevelt who, despite their previous promises, accepted it.
I agree with KSa. Poland and Belgium were absolutly destroyed in the wars, and the people didn't vote for Hitler so were completely innocent victims. I'm not against german people, but of course the german people in the 1930s and 1940s had more to say in the election of Hitler that the people of Poland or Belgium did have, so it's logic to conclude that they played a part. i don't mean all the people, but sufficent to enable to occur what occurred.
There was a big difference after the WW2: Poland was abandoned but Belgium not, and the subsequent years became very differnt for the countrys. I don't understand why tolerated the countrys that Poland was invaded by the USSR and it seem very hypocrit just because it was an ally country against Germany.
It wasn't so bad for Germany after the war (2nd) I think: it is a very big country and those people were forced to leave their homeland to move to the limit of Germany's border but this don't compare wiht murder, torture, medical experimentations, gassing, etc what suffered millions of innocent people because of not meeting the Nazi criteria of acceptability.
Yes Pauline, but I think we should still remember that Germany is a very fascinating country with a great contribution to human history and culture. Last week we celebrated the 85th birthday of Wladyslaw Bartoszewski - very interesting person, who was a prisoner of both Auschwitz concentration camp and a communist prison. He is very friendly towards Germans and has done a lot for the Polish-German reconciliation.
We are very proud of him.
Another person who did much to reconcile our nations was Polish pope John Paul II. Some people say that it's ironic that after Polish pope there came German pope.
By the way one of JPII's closest friends.
Yes Pauline, but I think we should still remember that Germany is a very fascinating country with a great contribution to human history and culture.
yes, for sure. I'm *not* against Germany or german people!!!! I wrote about the horrors of WW2 what I think was absolutly the worst for those people put in the concentration camps. This is because you and Fredrik compared the suffering of the german /polish people after the war because of the obligaotry re-settlement in another region, but I find this a trivial matter in comparaison.
You can find evil actions in the history of most countries. The belgians who were in the Congo were very cruel to the people there. I didn't discuss this on my message as we were talking about WW2 displaced persons of german /polish nationality.
The germans now havn't nothing to see with hitler etc... I don't care from what country is a person.
Yes, equating German(s) and Nazism is just too plain stupid. After all, a lot of the people who died in the Holocaust spoke German!
I've read a little bit about the Kresy Wschodnie (Eastern Borderlands) and Ziemie Odzyskane (Regained Territories) and have to say it's a very tragic and fascinating story also from the Polish perspective. I mean, how was/is the ambience in these re-settled areas? Was it like in the American West, where everybody were newcomers? And do Poles from these areas today go to Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraina to visit the villages and towns which they had to leave in their childhood, just like the Germans who come back to East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia do?
BTW the German TV station MDR made a good documentary about Germans who stayed behind in the German eastern areas and they used a phrase I liked very much: Als die Deutschen weg waren. = When the Germans were gone. That must have been a very marked divide in the history of these communities, even though the shadows of the Germans must have been quite present, I can imagine. It must have been an odd feeling, living in somebody else's abandoned house and of course, in uncertainty as to whether they would return. After all, the Oder-Neisse line was not recognized by Germany untill 1991. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Whenever I see those stupid gits running on the streets now admiring the stupid gits from pre '45 ...
Are there many?I hope that they aren't and that they will get no succes.
Quote:
But I'm also upset whenever I hear German=Nazi (that's not to few, believe me).
Unfortunatly there are many such ignorant people in the world. Also many who feel btter about themself when they put others in a negative category to disresepct. People with whom it's worht it to have a friendship or to respect don't equate german = nazi!!!It would be very hurtful to a german, I can imagine.
The stereotype that Germans have inherently Nazi tendencies is often exploited in the popular media. If you'd watched Eurotrip, the main character was visiting his penpal-turned-girlfriend's house and met her younger brother who promptly painted a toothpick moustache and give a fascist salute whilst goose-stepping all over the sitting room.
If anything, I have the impression that Germany is resolutely more anti-Nazi than some of her neighbours. The Germans seem to be very much aware that the whole world instinctively trains its eyes on Germany whenever issues such as the Holocaust or Nazi hooliganism crops up. They feel compelled to make a greater effort to assure everyone that the past would firmly remain in the past. There is this baggage of history that they feel obliged to carry. In a way, I feel sorry for the country. Despite her stellar achievements since the war, Germany seems emasculated in many ways to me. Any overt signs of patriotism is misinterpreted as manifestations of Nazi resurgence. I read that the recent success of the German football team at the World Cup has made conventional patriotism seem more palatable, but it is still sad that a citizen of a country is restrained from loving his fatherland completely and fully.
Ksa, what do Poles think of Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose? At this moment, I have an exchange student from England in my class who is actually Polish. She remarked to me that both these players ought to have played for Poland instead. Well, do you concurr? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
We can pity the Germans for their lack of possibilities to be patriotic, but sometimes I think they are to critical of themselves. As a Norwegian I connect displays of patriotism with lots of happy children waving flags, green foliage and a general good mood, but when I suggest to Germans that national celebrations don't have to be grave, militaristic and Prussian, but can be cheerful and family-oriented things, I get to hear that that would also be wrong, as it would remind them too much of Hitlerjugend and Kraft durch Freude etc.
But in a recent Why-I-love-Germany book in the wake of the World Cup, a German wrote that he loved Germany for having moved beyond nationalist ideology and thus being the most modern country in Europe, where people just viewed their nation as a practical political construction and didn't attach many emotional strings to it.
If I were to design some German nationalism, I think I would have emphazised celebrating the end of the war as a salvation from a nightmare and a return to humanity and democracy.* After all, the Germans suffered quite a bit too because of the war. You could also include a celebration of the loss of the eastern areas as a final goodbye to the reactionary junkers, Prussia, the feeling of being vulnerable frontiersmen among hostile Slavs, the whole stuff that spurred on the war. But that would of course be very controversial, as the organizations of the expellees from the lost eastern areas was quite strong in the early postwar era.
* But then I hopelessly pity those poor children who had to live through such a nightmare, on either side, because their crazy parents and neighbours voted for a dictator. This poster from the Danish-German plebiscite in Schleswig in 1920 sums it up so well:
The text says: Mummy, vote Danish, think of me.
That is my kind of nationalism - and the kind of which Germans could help themselves to a bit more of. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Yes, equating German(s) and Nazism is just too plain stupid. After all, a lot of the people who died in the Holocaust spoke German!
I've read a little bit about the Kresy Wschodnie (Eastern Borderlands) and Ziemie Odzyskane (Regained Territories) and have to say it's a very tragic and fascinating story also from the Polish perspective. I mean, how was/is the ambience in these re-settled areas? Was it like in the American West, where everybody were newcomers? And do Poles from these areas today go to Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraina to visit the villages and towns which they had to leave in their childhood, just like the Germans who come back to East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia do?
BTW the German TV station MDR made a good documentary about Germans who stayed behind in the German eastern areas and they used a phrase I liked very much: Als die Deutschen weg waren. = When the Germans were gone. That must have been a very marked divide in the history of these communities, even though the shadows of the Germans must have been quite present, I can imagine. It must have been an odd feeling, living in somebody else's abandoned house and of course, in uncertainty as to whether they would return. After all, the Oder-Neisse line was not recognized by Germany untill 1991.
Yes, there is strong positive sentiment towards Kresy Wschodnie and many people (including me) go and visit their beloved Wilno or Lwów fairly often. Still we remembered that now it’s the part of independent Lithuania and Ukraine and nobody thinks of setting up an ‘association of expelled’, not to mention re-settling there. As regards people who settled in pre-1939 German lands, I’ll give you an example. I was told that my mother’s aunt decided to go to Wrocław with her husband after the war (to clarify one thing: my family from my mother’s side is from Kresy as well but after WWII they settled in today’s eastern Poland, not in Ziemie Odzyskane, because we had the family there) and they were warned that German would return and kick them off Wrocław soon. They were firm in their decision but two years later they came back and settled in central Poland. As for other people who stayed there, as you mentioned Germany recognized the Oder-Neisse border quite recently so the situation was pretty uneasy even though there were plenty of Soviet troops located along the western border in order to “protect us” in case of the problem. I think people were much more afraid of Soviets than the potential danger from German side.
Ksa, what do Poles think of Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose? At this moment, I have an exchange student from England in my class who is actually Polish. She remarked to me that both these players ought to have played for Poland instead. Well, do you concurr?
Everyone knows that they belonged to German minority. Klose left for Germany when he was 8 or 9 while Podolski when he was only 2. Of course they could choose which team they would want to play for and they chose Germany. I think nobody is upset although we would prefer that they played for Poland since they are marvelous players. However, majority thinks they were justified to do what they did.
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No really the text looks strange, that's true but most of the letters are combined two or sometimes even three letters for one sound.
)
meinst du etwas wie ein Webcam, worauf du Bilder von ihnen konstant kucken kannst? das wäre *sehr* niedlich sein, und wenn deine Kollegen gemein sind, kannst du die süsse Ratten sehen.
