Well, it's gotta be time to fire this one up again! I don't usually go in much for politics, but Antimoon has gotten me debating the Brits on the nature of American voters (we'll see how long that one lasts before the mods shut it down) -- I think they are full of bullshit stereotypes, and they think I'm all pie in the sky, I guess. There's no talking politics on my other pet forum, because its membership is enormous and they are all completely rabid, so it just degenerates into insults and name-calling, which I can't get into. But I'm curious as to how others are feeling about it (if at all -- non-Americans may not care much).
Personally, I'm fascinated! What do you think of Sarah Palin? I find her very interesting, but not quite sure if that's enough. I can't really warm up to either Obama or McCain.
I think Palin is a throwback, and stands for a hardcore conservative mindset that I just despise -- her views on abortion alone kill her for me. Her religious nature is her own business, but I don't want her making it my business. As a sucker who once gave a few bucks to the Defenders of Wildlife charity, I've been regaled for a long time about her anti-wolf policies. That and her champing at the bit to drill in a major wildlife preserve tell me she's completely opposite to my environmental views -- I would see us abandon oil for other technologies rather than try to wring the last few drops out of the ground to eke a few more years out, while despoiling pristine wilderness. If you've ever seen pristine wilderness, you know how powerful that is. If you haven't, you can't even imagine -- I couldn't, before I saw it.
McCain, on the other hand, interests me more. You can't help but admire him no matter what your views; his war record and prisoner of war experience speaks to a strength of character most of us couldn't emulate. And he puts his money where his mouth is -- he would close down Guantanamo and never countenance torture, which he knows a thing or two about. I'm a strict reader of the constitution, and I think Bush has run roughshod all over the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments -- and probably the 8th as well. (For non-Americans, those are the parts of the Bill of Rights that delineate your rights during arrest, trial, and punishment, as well as the government's responsibilities toward you.) McCain also has a record of being very opposed to Bush, and honestly, I like seeing a guy like him at the helm of the party (however briefly, if he doesn't win), because he is taking it back to the center, and away from the crazy right fringe mentality that it has been courting for a long time. I am also excited to see him choose a female running mate -- even if she is exactly the crazy right fringe I can't stand. It says something about possibilities for change in such a conservative party.
Obama doesn't send chills down my spine. I'll be voting for him the way I voted for Kerry -- because I'm a Democrat, and that's who the party threw up there. I really preferred Clinton -- I thought she was a tough old bitch who deserved the moniker of "pitbull" far more than that PTA mom from up north. And that's one cage match I would die to see! It was also as close to getting Bill Clinton back as we are ever going to get, and I loved him -- voted for him twice, back in the day. Obama's okay as a substitute though -- I honestly thought it was too soon for Hillary to run anyway. Next time, Hill.
We're stuck with the Iraq war no matter who wins, so I don't really base my decision on their stated "policies" -- the candidates may talk a good game, but it's the generals who should be influencing that decision, and who knows what the future will hold for all their good intentions, or ill. Things could change drastically once either one is in office. I don't want to be in there for the next 100 years, but I don't want us leaving too soon without putting something in place to make it stable, either. As Colin Powell said, "You break it, you buy it." There just are no quick fixes for that mess, and we now can't just walk away, either. That's one general we should have listened to, eh? _________________ An apple a day....
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject:
Uriel wrote:
I think Palin is a throwback, and stands for a hardcore conservative mindset that I just despise -- her views on abortion alone kill her for me....
McCain, on the other hand, interests me more. You can't help but admire him no matter what your views...
I'm with you on this. I have no real qualms about McCain being President. I think he's a good man (albeit misguided). But Palin... The more I see her speak at these rallies, the more I dislike her. And I am truly disgusted by the racist rhetoric streaming out of those Republican rallies.
Anyway, Tuesday is the big day. The polls have Obama in the lead, but we all know how reliable polls can be! I wait with nervous anticipation.
I'll be watching from here! As we say in Africa, vote early and vote often!
The interest here is big, but overshadowed by our own dramatic political developments. Read Cry the Beloved Country thread... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject:
Whatever happens, I'll be glad that it's over. I'm tired of being inundated with political commercial ads and ridiculous people doing and saying ridiculous things, such as this woman:
Quote:
Woman denies Halloween candy to Obama supporters
ASSOCIATED PRESS
A Grosse Pointe Farms woman has doled out political tricks by refusing Halloween treats to children whose parents support Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.
Shirley Nagel passed out candy Friday — but only to those who shared her support for Republican presidential candidate John McCain and running mate Sarah Palin.
Fox 2 News says a sign posted outside Nagel's house, about 12 miles west of Detroit, served notice to all trick-or-treaters. It read: "No handouts for Obama supporters, liars, tricksters or kids of supporters."
Nagel tells WJBK-TV that "Obama's scary." When asked about children who'd been turned away empty-handed and crying, she said: "Oh well. Everybody has a choice."
Fax and phone messages were left today at numbers listed in Nagel's name.
Now why on earth would a grown adult involve poor innocent kids who just want to have a night of fun in their silly little political mind games??
Ah, people take politics way too seriously, sometimes. Involving children is ridiculous and wrong, and the fact that it made the news shows how inexcusable and petty it is.
On a happier note, there will now be one huge par-TAY in Kenya tonight! Wooohooo! And now Obama can stop leaving messages on my answering machine. Thanks, dude, and congrats -- now quit calling me! I voted a week ago, for chrissakes! _________________ An apple a day....
Congratulations on your newe president, America! Certainly an improvement on Bush!
Now, that being settled, can we now get back to some serious stuff, such as South African politics, which is getting more exciting by the day! _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Congratulations on your newe president, America! Certainly an improvement on Bush!
Yes, yes. The dawning of a new era!
However, my elation over Obama's win is tempered by the victory of California Proposition 8: The Same Sex Marriage Ban. The fact that right-wing religious groups can band together under the slogan of "Protect Traditional Marriage", wage a dirty campaign of deception and misinformation, preying on people's fear that their children will be indoctrinated into the gay lifestyle, and emerge victorious, forever altering our state constitution, absolutely disgusts me. No matter how one feels about gay marriage, this measure arose out of hate, and sadly, intolerance has won.
Sadder still, the 2 main groups that the Obama campaign worked tirelessly to mobilize and vote-- Latinos and African-Americans-- voted overwhelmingly in favor of Prop 8.
Quote:
Now, that being settled, can we now get back to some serious stuff, such as South African politics, which is getting more exciting by the day!
I heard that Prop 8 was going to pass. I think it's silly, myself, but I'm no longer a California resident so I have no say. But I think whenever people talk about amending an actual constitution, they need to hold their proposed amendment up beside the ones that are already there and ask themselves: Is this really on a par with all the rest? Is this momentous enough to be engraved in stone? Does this affect all the people in the state (or country), or just some of them?
If you ask me, gay marriage proponents would be well-served to do waht abortion proponents did, and seek the shelter of the federal 4th Amendment. _________________ An apple a day....
Now, that being settled, can we now get back to some serious stuff, such as South African politics, which is getting more exciting by the day!
But the SA elections are still months away. [/quote]
Yes, but the political scene has suddenly become very exciting with the new party We have a new game, called Name the Party. Their biggest problem at the moment is to find a name. They've run into trouble with three names already. With the first, the ANC threatened court action, because the name too closely resembled the name of the ANC. Then they tried another name, only to find that some small, obscure party already has that name.... _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
I know this is old news, but I think there is no such thing as a comment that comes too late.
Frankly I was not disappointed that McCain lost. The writing was on the wall the moment he chose the Governor of Alaska. He betted on female Clintonites deserting over to his side in droves and it failed badly. That's alright. He had nothing much to lose anyway.
The Republicans need a spell out in the cold. Political incumbents become too flabby after awhile and they need a good dose of reality check.
I am only sorry that black Americans voted overwhelmingly for Obama. I don't want to sound racist here, but it only shows that the black electorate lacks an independent mind of their own here. It is not possible for over 90% of an ethnic group to throw in their lot with a candidate. Such high support can only be evidence of vote rigging if elections were held in a less developed country with a less robust democratic political system. But since this is America, I can only conclude that African-Americans are voting purely on racial lines.
I am also very disappointed with General Colin Powell. To bite the hand of the party that fed and nurtured him, that only reminds me of the treacherous Brutus who stabbed Caesar in the back. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject:
Loic wrote:
I am only sorry that black Americans voted overwhelmingly for Obama. I don't want to sound racist here, but it only shows that the black electorate lacks an independent mind of their own here. It is not possible for over 90% of an ethnic group to throw in their lot with a candidate. Such high support can only be evidence of vote rigging if elections were held in a less developed country with a less robust democratic political system. But since this is America, I can only conclude that African-Americans are voting purely on racial lines.
I don't think that's a fair or wholly accurate assessment. I think to fully understand why blacks voted overwhelmingly for Barack you would have to get into the psyche of a black person voting in a country whose legacy is to intimidate blacks from voting, neglect their population base, or make promises that would never be kept. Many of the African-Americans who turned out to vote for Obama had never voted before. I'm sure that many of them probably saw this as a symbolic gesture of righting past wrongs, but a good portion of them were mobilized through Obama's methodical registration campaign, the likes of which they had never seen in their lifetime. ( An interesting article I recommend that you read:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/23/nation/na-blackvote23 )
Quote:
I am also very disappointed with General Colin Powell. To bite the hand of the party that fed and nurtured him, that only reminds me of the treacherous Brutus who stabbed Caesar in the back.
I gained a whole new respect for him after that. Although, I can't say the same for that traitorous Joe Lieberman.
I know this is old news, but I think there is no such thing as a comment that comes too late.
Frankly I was not disappointed that McCain lost. The writing was on the wall the moment he chose the Governor of Alaska. He betted on female Clintonites deserting over to his side in droves and it failed badly. That's alright. He had nothing much to lose anyway.
The Republicans need a spell out in the cold. Political incumbents become too flabby after awhile and they need a good dose of reality check.
I am only sorry that black Americans voted overwhelmingly for Obama. I don't want to sound racist here, but it only shows that the black electorate lacks an independent mind of their own here. It is not possible for over 90% of an ethnic group to throw in their lot with a candidate. Such high support can only be evidence of vote rigging if elections were held in a less developed country with a less robust democratic political system. But since this is America, I can only conclude that African-Americans are voting purely on racial lines.
I am also very disappointed with General Colin Powell. To bite the hand of the party that fed and nurtured him, that only reminds me of the treacherous Brutus who stabbed Caesar in the back.
Au contraire, mon frere! It is actually QUITE possible that blacks were voting their usual party lines and not along racial lines at all, since almost all blacks are Democrats anyway! And yes, to the tune of 90%! The Republican party has not only never offered them much in the way of an open hand, but it has built a party base on a lot of subtle and less subtle race division, and attracted a lot of people who would not necessarily be friendly to blacks in real life. Colin Powell and Condi Rice were two very high-profile but lonely exceptions -- and like you, Elaine, Colin won my respect when he came out in support of Obama -- for all the right reasons.
I voted straight party lines when I voted for Obama, because he was not my first pick, but I am a Democrat. Race never entered into it. Nor did sex, even though I was a big Hillary Clinton fan and it would have been freakin' awesome to see a woman on the podium. What heartens me is that neither of those choices looked strange or undoable to me -- I thought of them as just another pair of politicians, not as a woman or a black man. Yes, I realize that either one would have represented a milestone, but I look at those as inevitable milestones, not thunderclaps out of the blue. And obviously, so did everyone else, because it was the white vote that put Obama in the Oval Office. _________________ An apple a day....
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:30 am Post subject:
What a thrill these past few days have been! I'm not expecting miracles, I'm not expecting everything to be fixed overnight (nor in 1 or 2 presidential terms for that matter), but at least it's a step in the right direction.
I voted straight party lines when I voted for Obama, because he was not my first pick, but I am a Democrat. Race never entered into it.
I find it quite weird that in multiracial/multicultural countries like the US when someone has admitted they are not Obama's supporters it is usually followed by a statement like "race never entered into it", "race has nothing to do with it", etc. Is such an explanation necessary? I guess it's sort of insurance policy in case of someone accuses you: "you do not support Obama because he is black and you are a racist!". But in that case it means the things do not go in a right direction.
I do not support Obama. Full stop. And this is not your business - I'm not going to explain why.
More, during the inauguration ceremony, I saw on the TV a young black guy intervied by a reporter. He was expressing his joy by the fact that Obama was elected as president and at the end he raised his clenched fist and said "Black power!". There were no comments, no reactions. I suppose if McCain had won the elections and a white guy had commented with his fist raised and words: "white power", the media would have had a topic for discussions for the next few weeks. Are there different standards for the blacks than for the whites? I mean, are racist statements tolerable when presented by the blacks?
No, when I said race or gender never entered into it, it meant that I wasn't attracted to them or repelled by them because of those attributes. Yeah, you do have to sometimes make those disclaimers in our society, because we are pretty blunt and don't ignore racial and ethnic tensions or try to politely pretend they don't exist. I think it is more popular in Europe to maintain the facade of not even acknowledging race or ethnicity, so that it because inexcusably gauche to even mention that you noticed someone was a different color or a different background. As if playiong the part will keep it all from becoming a reality. Yet the reality is that the same tensions and prejudices still seethe and bubble under this polite surface. Sometimes it's better to admit they exist and confront them head-on than to pretend that they will all just go away on their own. Prejudice and hatred and tribalism are very normal parts of the human social psyche -- not good ones, but normal ones, and we need to be able to trot them out in the light from time to time to understand them better.
Okay, off the soapbox now!
I am excited by Hillary the pit bull being unleashed on the world as Sec. of State. That appeases my sensibilities a great deal. I am also thrilled to see stem cell research back up and running not the least because it has immediate applications to the spinal cord damage and neurological disorders i see in our patients here at work every day -- if there is any therapy that will allow you to heal an injured nervous system, i am all for it! It was also galling to see American scientists having to forgo cutting edge research when if there is one thing we Americans should all be annoyingly and arrogantly preening ourselves about it is the absolute preeminence of our scientific community. Likewise with Obama's green agenda. A colleague of someone I know said that he was one of the scientists invited to advise on appointments during the transition period, and Rahm Emmanual himself greeted the assembled scientists and toid them flat out, "If any of you doubt the seriousness of global warming, you can leave the room now." Likewise, the closing of the Guantanamo Bay prison and the prohibition of anything resembling torture or contrary to the Geneva Conventions puts our law back where it should be -- in the hands of the Constitution.
I was amused to see Obama calling the Palestinian leader and the Israeli leader first, before paying his respects to our allied world leaders. A perfect example of "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." i am deeply impressed by Obama's shrewdness and his steel. Although I would have picked Hillary for his position by inclination, I think he is probably the better choice as a statesman than she is. At least right now in these times. I'm sure her time will come later, and this will be an excellent proving ground. _________________ An apple a day....
Yes, what Uriel says about race and politics, applies to South Africa as well.
Here, race certainly plays a part, probably more than in the US, when people decide who to vote for. Many blacks won't vote for the Democratic Alliance, because it has a white leader, and many whites vote for it for that very same reason. But I also think association plays a part. Most - or at least many - people vote for the candidate they can best associate themselves with, who will best understand their situation. So, in the same way where a person will prefer a local candidate to one from outside, a person from the same age group, income group, language (an important factor here), race wil directly play a part for many people. (I'm talking specifically about SA here, not the USA).
I watched Obama's inauguration, and was rather impressed! I hope he keeps it up. It's to early to judge, but his administration so far seems more dynamic than the Bush administration.
_________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
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The more I see her speak at these rallies, the more I dislike her. And I am truly disgusted by the racist rhetoric streaming out of those Republican rallies.
Certainly an improvement on Bush!
