Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: East vs. West
After reading some posts in topic about Eurovision, I realized that the tensions are still very strong, is Pauline's opinion very common in your countries (if they belong to the West?) and what's the attitude to the West in your country if it s from ex-Eastern block or just situated outside of these blocks?
Of course there are different opinions, but just in general, what ideas are more popular? _________________
Not all eastern countries are so evil manipulative.
The ones who are : Romania, yugoslavia ( 6 countries now) Moldova and some others. For example all 5 other Yugoslavias voted 12 points for Serbia.
The ones who didn't vote to manipulate but are eastern : hungary, Greece, Poland, czech Rep. maybe some more.
i think that it's not nice or correct to ask people if my opinion's very common in their countries- what part of my opinion, and about what exactly? i didn't and wouldn't make a thread for ask if Wanderin's opinion is common.
Quite honestly I consider this palaver over Eurovision entirely pointless.
I don't know what kinds of ideas are popular in which countries, but I have no doubts about my impartiality concerning this issue. Although I'm fully aware of the fact that nasty things are going on there, I don't think the discussion of the issue should boil down to a miniature war between eastern and western European countries.
Certainly, there is corruption and low-quality music as well as fairness and good music on both sides. Even if the vast majority of manipulators is to be found among East Europeans, no-one has the right to disdain the whole Eastern Europe en masse as a bunch of cheaters. Furthermore, I strongly disapprove of the idea of dividing contestants into two groups (a normal and an abnormal one) based on the supposition that there is direct correlation between western countries and fair play, and eastern countries and manipulation, respectively.
On what grounds could you decide which countries are the eastern and which are the western ones? Pauline has made up two groups and she put some Central/Eastern European countries into the western group. So, if one wants to make a distinction, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "these countries have cheated", "those haven’t"? Mind you, I'm not in favour of this idea, either - I'm just trying to propose a better solution if you want separation at whatsoever price.
A contest like this is by default supposed to advocate mutual understanding and acceptance of different cultures and to annihilate (the concept of) the "iron curtain", but in this case, it only helps rebuild it.
On the whole, I would rather not qualify the Eurovision Song Contest and any other contests like this as they aren't about music and talent anymore. They have got more to do with power, prestige and politics, on both sides. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Last edited by Liz on Wed May 16, 2007 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sorry, Pauline...I didn't see your post. I'm glad you see it that way, i.e. not all eastern countries are evil. Still, I daresay those "evil" countries aren't en masse "evil", either. Just some people are.
I don't think this thread was a good idea, either. (For some peculiar reason I keep on contributing to it, though.) It just revives the already heated debate. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
On the whole, I would rather not qualify the Eurovision Song Contest and any other contests like this as they aren't about music and talent anymore. They have got more to do with power, prestige and politics, on both sides.
It *was* about the music before those romanians, ex-yugoslavians (x 6) moldovans etc have ruined it.
Liz wrote:
the "iron curtain", but in this case, it only helps rebuild it.
I wish that they woudl rebuild it in front of those countries (the evil ones, not Hungary, Poland etc) so they will not manipulate to get power of the western eurpean countries.
Liz wrote:
I don't think this thread was a good idea, either.
On the contrary, I feel that this thread was started with good intentions. Wanderin struck me as being genuinely curious about East-West tensions that have recently manifested itself at the Eurovision song contest.
Pauline, are your views necessarily representative of the opinions of Western Europeans in general? Is the erection of another Iron Wall necessary? Is a return to Cold War tensions a healthy prospect for the economy?
At any rate, I feel that the song content is slightly similar to England's position when it comes to many sports. Just as the Western Europeans founded the contest and continue to fund the bulk of its expenses, they are now outshined by their eastern neighbours when it comes to mounting the podium.
England invented cricket and spread it to her colonies, but she has now acquired the distressing habit of being outshone by them. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
On the contrary, I feel that this thread was started with good intentions. Wanderin struck me as being genuinely curious about East-West tensions that have recently manifested itself at the Eurovision song contest.
I have no doubts about Wanderin's good intentions but the revival of this thread invokes intolerance, hostility or even agression towards each other. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
That the eastern ones "outshined" western countries is absolutly ignorant and stupid comment without knowledge of the voteing system and without to listen the songs. Before you write such things, please listen the songs. Here's the 2nd place winner, Ukraine. This did "outshine" all the western songs by 15 places (the top western song had the 17th place):
Wanderin struck me as being genuinely curious about East-West tensions that have recently manifested itself at the Eurovision song contest.
She can be curious but she must stop to follow me and attack me, like on the eurovision thread and here. She can ask her questions without putting my name and about if my opinions are common in the countries. My opinions are mine and she can leave me alone.
Loic wrote:
Pauline, are your views necessarily representative of the opinions of Western Europeans in general? Is the erection of another Iron Wall necessary? Is a return to Cold War tensions a healthy prospect for the economy?
I know about 20 people, how can I know what 10 millions of belgians think or 100s millions of Western Europeans? Yes a new iron curtain is necessary against the evil of Romania, Moldova, Yugoslavias (x 6) and some other of those countries. Shut up please just once about the economy, how about other things? Those countries are evil and those people want to destroy, manipulate and control western europe because they hate western europe. after there will be nothing of culture, nice things only evil and their extreme corruption and lies.
It's absolutly ntohign to see with cricket!!! If a country win/ lose in a comnpeteition justly made, fair voeting, all the people respect the rules and each other then you can be happy for the winners also when you lose.
This isn't only about the Eurovsision it's about all the time, and the plans of those countries. Their manipulation is reflected in their voteing at Eurosvision but their plans take place every day and they're all the time more advancing it.
I don't want to continue this discussion because Wanderin can leave me alone and if she would like to talk about east/ west she can but *without* my name and imposing her thoughts at me.
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: East vs. West
Wanderin wrote:
is Pauline's opinion very common in your countries (if they belong to the West?)
Stop to try to get all the people against me. It's allowed to have my opinion. My opinions don't belong to other people, the west, north, east or south. I didn't take this opinions from nobody, they're mine. This will be my final reply to you, Wanderin.
On the contrary, I feel that this thread was started with good intentions. Wanderin struck me as being genuinely curious about East-West tensions that have recently manifested itself at the Eurovision song contest.
I have no doubts about Wanderin's good intentions but the revival of this thread invokes intolerance, hostility or even agression towards each other.
It's not the thread which should be blamed. I cannot understand why we should avoid talking about difficult problems and issues.
Last edited by KSa on Wed May 16, 2007 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: East vs. West
Wanderin wrote:
After reading some posts in topic about Eurovision, I realized that the tensions are still very strong, is Pauline's opinion very common in your countries (if they belong to the West?) and what's the attitude to the West in your country if it s from ex-Eastern block or just situated outside of these blocks?
Of course there are different opinions, but just in general, what ideas are more popular?
As I mentioned on the other thread I've observed that in the West they tend not to distinguish between specific countries but just say "East Europe". Not to mention people who give a cry of surprise when they find out that Polish is a separate language or that Poland was not one of the soviet republic after the WWII. But it's a question of (improper) education, I think.
As I mentioned on the other thread I've observed that in the West they tend not to distinguish between specific countries but just say "East Europe". Not to mention people who give a cry of surprise when they find out that Polish is a separate language or that Poland was not one of the soviet republic after the WWII. But it's a question of (improper) education, I think.
Who don't know that polish is a separate language? It's in the group slavic languages, as russian , czech, serbian etc..but not as romanian / moldovan (latin group). Poland was behind the iron curtain but not part of the USSR.
KsA, we are not so idiot in "the West". It's you who generalise "the West".i've clearly separated which countries of the East are the evil ones.
I fidn the people in the East don't know nothing of the western countries. For example the languages of Belgium. They give a cry of surprise when they find out that in Belgium are spoken dutch and german as well as french. Also, they don't know that flemish and dutch aren't separated languages.
slovenian on antimoon wrote:
Pauline, please shut up.
I'm from Slovenia and my country is more to the west than most of your country, including Vienna, which we can consider FarEast compared to our geografic location. Please go away with this East-West separation.
That sounds a bit Hitler-like.
On antimoon, a slovenian thought that Belgium is more east that the most of Slovenia, and that Vienna is Belgium. QED.
Last edited by Pauline on Wed May 16, 2007 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
It's not the thread which should be blamed. I cannot understand why we should avoid talking about difficult problems and issues.
You seem to be missing my point there.
I've never claimed that we should avoid discussing certain problems, not even that one. The same thread was started on Antimoon, too, which seemed like a good idea at first sight. That said, the thread has descended into a pointless argument. I have nothing against discussing that topic per se as long as people are able to argue with reason. I don't think ad hominem attacks are part and parcel of a sensible debate.
Had I not seen the thread on the other forum, I would probably be more enthusiastic about the idea of this discussion. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Who don't know that polish is a separate language? It's in the group slavic languages, as russian , czech, serbian etc..but not as romanian / moldovan (latin group). Poland was behind the iron curtain but not part of the USSR.
Yes I forgot to add that this is an "extreme" opinion about Polish by no means presented by majority in the West. Anyway, there are some who think so. Similarly, I've met people in my country who think that there is something like "Belgian" language. Improper education is on both sides. We shouldn't however generalize by saying that the whole nation is "evil".
What I also meant by "improper education" is what I'd read the other week in a newspaper. In Sweden they did a poll among Swedish pupils on what they know about communism. I was surprised to find that 90% (!!!) of responents haven't heard about soviet lagers (GULag)!. Some 40% claim that communism has contributed to the world's economic prosperity. And so on and on. The answer is simple: they are not taught about it at school.
KsA, we are not so idiot in "the West". It's you who generalise "the West".i've clearly separated which countries of the East are the evil ones.
Yes, my fault - "mea culpa". I should have said: "some people in the West".
Having unintentionally generalized, it's an akward situtation for me now to disagree with you that even separation some countries form the others cannot be justified because you still say about the whole country "evil". It's still generalizing .
What I also meant by "improper education" is what I'd read the other week in a newspaper. In Sweden they did a poll among Swedish pupils on what they know about communism. I was surprised to find that 90% (!!!) of responents haven't heard about soviet lagers (GULag)!. Some 40% claim that communism has contributed to the world's economic prosperity. And so on and on. The answer is simple: they are not taught about it at school.
Well, it's much worse to experience the same thing in eastern Europe. I was really truly gobsmacked at my fellow countrymen (of my age or younger than me). Lots of them know *practically* nothing about communism. They only thing they know is that it was something evil. Therefore they tend to use the word "communist" as a general term of abuse. Sadly enough, that's a prevalent attitude in the political life, too. They call everyone a communist they hate, regardless of political orientation. I'm talking about the political right as well as about the political left. Furthermore, there are diligent ex-servants of the "ancien régime" on both sides, which is a sad, sad thing. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
What I also meant by "improper education" is what I'd read the other week in a newspaper. In Sweden they did a poll among Swedish pupils on what they know about communism. I was surprised to find that 90% (!!!) of responents haven't heard about soviet lagers (GULag)!. Some 40% claim that communism has contributed to the world's economic prosperity. And so on and on. The answer is simple: they are not taught about it at school.
Well, it's much worse to experience the same thing in eastern Europe. I was really truly gobsmacked at my fellow countrymen (of my age or younger than me). Lots of them know *practically* nothing about communism. They only thing they know is that it was something evil. Therefore they tend to use the word "communist" as a general term of abuse. Sadly enough, that's a prevalent attitude in the political life, too. They call everyone a communist they hate, regardless of political orientation. I'm talking about the political right as well as about the political left. Furthermore, there are diligent ex-servants of the "ancien régime" on both sides, which is a sad, sad thing.
I think it's a matter of targeted education. In the same article I read that in the 60s many people in Sweden knew relatively little about Nazizm. The targeted education campaign enabled to eradicate the problem. Alas, here in Poland we get angry every now and then at the articles in European newspapers/magazines about "Polish concentrration camps". Fortunately, our Ministry of Foreign Affairs is reacting quite resolutely each time. But how many young people's minds have been shaped by this? Who knows?
I think it's a matter of targeted education. In the same article I read that in the 60s many people in Sweden knew relatively little about Nazizm. The targeted education campaign enabled to eradicate the problem. Alas, here in Poland we get angry every now and then at the articles in European newspapers/magazines about "Polish concentrration camps". Fortunately, our Ministry of Foreign Affairs is reacting quite resolutely each time. But how many young people's minds have been shaped by this? Who knows?
Oh yes, that's the other side of the coin. I usually have the feeling that Nazism is woefully ignored in our country, due to the intensive anti-communist propaganda. They talk an awful lot about the victims of communism compared to that of fascism. Hopefully, it's just an illusion that the nightmares of Nazi terror seem to sink into oblivion. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
First of all I didn't want to speak about Eurovision, (it only gave the idea of this thread) but about real politics and people's opinion, probably about cliches, as someone calls some countries here "evil" etc.
The question is not who knows what languages are spoken in Belgium, but the question is what people think and feel towards certain parts of Europe and let's don't speak about Eurovision as it's just funny to mention it in Politics forum.
The problem appears in "new western" countries which joined EU and NATO not long time ago. How are they seen in "old Europe" and vice versa? And of course ex-USSR like Ukraine, Belorus, Russia, are they seen as 3d world countries? Evil, strange, etc? How are Russia-EU relations are seen? Do you think that Ukraine is a real hope for new "democratic" Europe after orange revolution and do you really think that Belorus is like one big GULAG? LOL And do you believe that Russia is still totalitarian state without freedoms etc?
Well, let's talk about real politics _________________
On the contrary, I feel that this thread was started with good intentions. Wanderin struck me as being genuinely curious about East-West tensions that have recently manifested itself at the Eurovision song contest.
I have no doubts about Wanderin's good intentions but the revival of this thread invokes intolerance, hostility or even agression towards each other.
It's not the thread which should be blamed. I cannot understand why we should avoid talking about difficult problems and issues.
I agree. We should be able to discuss difficult problems and issues, without fighting. We have competent moderators here, and the kind of fights Antimoon is famous for, is not allowed here.
_________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
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Improper education is on both sides. We shouldn't however generalize by saying that the whole nation is "evil".
