Another language I understand fully that I havent´t studied is, Norwegian.
This because I´m from Sweden and this language is merely a swedish dialect.
Ooouh-er.
I think what you mean is that both Swedish and Norwegian (and Danish) are part of the Scandinavian dialect continuum. So if you described Norwegian as a 'Swedish dialect', then you might as well also call Swedish a 'Norwegian dialect'.
You´re maybe right about that, but since swedish is the "head" language in Scandinavia I call norwegian and danish dialect of swedish.
But who knows, maybe swedish is a dialect of the languages above.
Ta for your comment by the way.
Regards to you. Pat xx
I don't think of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish as dialects of one and the same language. Despite their similarities they are different languages. That's how they're classified.
I can understand other languages a lot easier when reading than when listening. Especially if it's something I learned mostly on my own. Spanish and Arabic (as long as it's Modern Standard Arabic) I can understand well enough when I'm actually listening.
I once had the opportunity to hear Chtmi being spoken by two fifty something year old men in Tourcoing and I must say that I could understand snatches of it. Initially, I even thought that they were speaking French with a rustic provincial accent before my friend -a mate doing his classe prepa in Lille - told me otherwise.
This was the only French Romance language I encountered. I wish I had the chance to hear Nissart or Mentonais, but never did. Breton was miles away from standard French and what little I heard was naturally a complete mystery to me. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I wish I had the chance to hear Nissart or Mentonais, but never did.
no surprise, almost no people speak them. I've been living years in that region and never have heard nobody speaking them. The only opportunity I had to hear occitan (not nissart or mentonese) is on the local france3 TV in a little daily news program.
Said that you can often see nissart writted in street names in the old Nice - but that more a folkloric thing than a real linguitic fact.
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Breton was miles away from standard French and what little I heard was naturally a complete mystery to me.
Breton is a total mystery for everyone non-breton speaking french people since it part of a complete different linguistic group. For me, even if I have some Breton ancestors it is like chinese...
Breton is a Brythonic language, most closely related to Welsh and Cornish. The Brythonic languages form one of the two main living branches of the Celtic language family — the other is the Goidelic languages, which includes Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Manx. However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
Well, I did pick up a few Breton words like "kenavo" for hello or goodbye as well as "mad" which more or less corresponds to "bien" in French.
Since we're on the subject of languages which we are most able to understand without formal schooling, I'd like to know if Fab has ever heard picard spoken when he is in Picardy and whether he is able to fully understand a conversation conducted either in picard or cht'mi.
Benjamin wrote:
Breton is a Brythonic language, most closely related to Welsh and Cornish. The Brythonic languages form one of the two main living branches of the Celtic language family — the other is the Goidelic languages, which includes Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Manx. However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
I have been given to understand that many Bretons have a sense of solidarity with other Celtic countries and fringe regions which even extend to Asturia and Galicia in Spain. Apparently, there is a Festival Celtique de Lorient that takes place every summer in the eponymous city. In fact, there was a Breton parade that took place at the Champs-Elysees last autumn and participating groups include kilt-wearing bagpipe-playing representatives from Scotland. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
I know this, it hasn't to be taken literally. "c'est du Chinois" in french is just an expression that means we don't understand it...
That said, the indo-European relation is not really obvious for the everyday speaker of a language, it is something that only linguists or people with linguistic knoledges can notice most of the time.
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I'd like to know if Fab has ever heard picard spoken when he is in Picardy and whether he is able to fully understand a conversation conducted either in picard or cht'mi.
I actually never been in Picardy, and only once in Nord-Pas-de-Calais (not taking in count the times I crossed it to go to England Belgium or Netherlands.), so I'm not a specialist of the question or accents of these regions. I never had the opportunity to hear a conversation in "Chti' ".
The only time I've been in Lille and Dunquerke I haven't heard speaking "Chti", but standard french without, or with a light accent depending of the people.
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I have been given to understand that many Bretons have a sense of solidarity with other Celtic countries and fringe regions which even extend to Asturia and Galicia in Spain. Apparently, there is a Festival Celtique de Lorient that takes place every summer in the eponymous city.
the festival interceltique de Lorient is very famous and is a major attraction in that region in summer.
"celtic" is generally thought as quite wide concept, even including some places like Astralia or new Zealand among the traditional "celtic nations".
although many bretons identify with that concept I personally would have some reserves. I tend to think that the name "celtic" doesn't really well apply to them, because most are not speaking a celtic language anymore, nor are having a specific "celtic" culture or religion, and are part of quite different states. Etnically speaking it would be difficult to assume today, after the so many migrations that they would have a common "celtic" origin - essentially because the "original" celts were not originary from these regions but more from the inside of continental Europe.
I think that in the modern meaning, celtic is mainly a "new" identity for the people of the fringes of western Europe caused more about similar landscapes and climates (so of habitats too), and an identification with a sortt of way of life linked with that ambiance, with the wild ocean, etc. but finally not really a "celt" thing - even in music, the bagpipes which have became a sort of icone of "celticness" are not of celtic origin but were widely used in all Europe at a certain time, even in north Africa.
I think that in the modern meaning, celtic is mainly a "new" identity for the people of the fringes of western Europe caused more about similar landscapes and climates (so of habitats too), and an identification with a sortt of way of life linked with that ambiance, with the wild ocean, etc. but finally not really a "celt" thing - even in music, the bagpipes which have became a sort of icone of "celticness" are not of celtic origin but were widely used in all Europe at a certain time, even in north Africa.
I think it's fairly obvious that the main motivation behind the 'Celtic identity' is to exclude England, and by extension most of France and most of Spain — probably for political reasons. Or at least, I think that's certainly the motivation behind the people who produced that map you posted above, especially as large areas of Australia seem to have been included. Fundamentally, I completely fail to see how Lowland Scotland is any more 'Celtic' than England — like England, Lowland Scotland has been predominantly Germanic-speaking for well over a thousand years. But ultimately, 'Celticness' isn't something you hear about a huge amount in Scotland, to be honest. (There's also the viewpoint that 'traditional Scottish culture' was largely invented by English aristocrats in the 19th century anyway).
Fundamentally, I completely fail to see how Lowland Scotland is any more 'Celtic' than England — like England, Lowland Scotland has been predominantly Germanic-speaking for well over a thousand years.
I agree with you. Actually about 80% of Britanny wasn't celtic speaking (unless we come back to the times when all western Europe was). But, some people still consider Britanny as a whole to be "celtic" without really knowing was it could mean. Rennes has nothing more "celtic" than Tours, angers or any other north-western french city, which all look pretty similar with similar kind of people. for me calling Britanny a "celtic nation" is not something to take seriously, and most people doesn't. Said that, some young politized young people can fell in a sort of independantist extremism, often of extreme-left in the case of Britanny, which them thinking they are supposed to be part of a different nation than the rest of the country, supposed to be "celtic", in opposition of the rest.
I'm not opposed to Breton independence, and I would say that I feel a certain affinity with the Union Démocratique Bretonne (even though they don't actually advocate Breton independence in the short term). I essentially view the UDB as a relatively left-wing party allied with the Greens which is committed to the preservation of the Breton language and devolution for Brittany.
Having said that, as far as the pro-independence movement is concerned, Britanny is decades behind Scotland or even Wales.
Actually about 80% of Britanny wasn't celtic speaking (unless we come back to the times when all western Europe was). But, some people still consider Britanny as a whole to be "celtic" without really knowing was it could mean. Rennes has nothing more "celtic" than Tours, angers or any other north-western french city, which all look pretty similar with similar kind of people.
Is the proportation really that high? In my understanding, Basse-Bretagne or the departments of Finistere and Morbihan had traditionally been bretonnat with the line dividing Breton and Gallo cutting through Cote d'Armor and Ille-et-Vilaine.
From what I know though, Breton is indeed a language in imminent extinction. There are scores of people in their 50s who grew up hearing Breton being spoken, but who are now unable to speak more than a few cursory words. I befriended a couple of Bretons at Essec and most of them only know a few words like "kenavo" (read: salut) or "demat" (read: bonjour).
I think what gives Britanny its lasting Celtic character has to be the convoluted place names which defy pronunciation - at least for the visitor who is more accustomed to Gallic vowels. Some of the places which I sensibly did not attempt to pronounce include Plougoumelen, Plobannalec-Lesconil, Ploudalmézeau as well as Bannalec. These names seem to be a world apart from places such as Cergy, Neuville, Conflans – Fin d'Oise or Houilles – Carrières-sur-Seine (all train stops of the RER A line).
Of course, place names aside, I'd consider the Catholic traditions of the region to be a strong part of its Celtic heritage. Where else in France can you find calvaries dotting the sides of the road or young people attending mass?
_________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
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What do you think people from Norway or Denmark would say to that?
