hundas ---> hounds (semantic changes resulted in this word only being used for specific breeds of dogs, while "dog" replaced it in the general sense. Dutch and German retained the use of "hund", but an English speaker without knowing this, would most likely not make the connection.)
So, Greg, I can only understand a few of the Anglo-Saxon phrases, with the help of the French, such as "Hunta ic eom", which tells me that word order was very different, which I know. So, what are you trying to convey? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
What I said to Benjamin is that extinct grammatical rules in English do not help a modern English speaker understand those same sentence structures in a modern foreign language.
It does if you are aware of archaic and/or literary grammatical forms — as anyone who sings hymns on a regular basis will be, at least passively.
Porthos wrote:
English [doesn't have] all those "en" endings on verbs.
Which aren't actually pronounced in Standard Dutch and most other Dutch dialects anyway.
I think you're generally placing too much emphasis upon the written language.
Porthos wrote:
And for you, there might not be much of a difference between "I" and "Ich", but for me, I see a one letter word pronounced "aye", and a *three* letter word with a totally different pronounciation. I've done numerous tests on schoolmates, workmates, family members etc, and they don't recognize that these two words are cognates!
The same could be said about the French 'je' and the Italian 'io'.
Porthos wrote:
Honestly, could you recognize these two "very visible" Indo-European cognates?
Pater - Vader
Padre - Father
Pere - Vater
Looking at these cognates from a linguist's viewpoint, I can easily determine that their cognates and they would be recognizable as so, once I allow for the consonant shifts that the Germanic langauges underwent that Latin and its descendants did not. For instance, I would know to switch "P" to "F/V", and I would know the consonant shift Spanish underwent when evolving from Latin, which was "T" ---> "D". But these small letter changes amount to very big differences, and to the average person without this knowledge, there is no way they would be able to identify "Padre" and "Vader" as cognates.
Well, probably not — but I'm fairly sure that most native English speakers could recognise 'vader' as 'father', at least when spoken. Bear in mind also that 'v' in German is always pronounced like an English 'f' anyway, and that a 'v' in Dutch is often pronounced like an 'f' in English at the start of words.
Porthos wrote:
English is to Dutch and German, which have very distinct grammar systems.
Yes and no. Your argument that English and Dutch have 'very distinct grammar systems' is based almost entirely on the fact that, in Dutch, infinities and past participles go to the end in main clauses, and that conjugated verbs go to the end after subordinating conjunctions. That is not tantamount to having 'very distinct grammar systems', in my view.
So, Greg, I can only understand a few of the Anglo-Saxon phrases, with the help of the French, such as "Hunta ic eom", which tells me that word order was very different, which I know. So, what are you trying to convey?
He's saying that it is this language — Anglo-Saxon or Old English —which you need to examen if your research project is focussing on what happened in the 5th century CE; not Modern English.
So, Greg, I can only understand a few of the Anglo-Saxon phrases, with the help of the French, such as "Hunta ic eom", which tells me that word order was very different, which I know. So, what are you trying to convey?
He's saying that it is this language — Anglo-Saxon or Old English —which you need to examen if your research project is focussing on what happened in the 5th century CE; not Modern English.
But this doesn't help me. If anything, I would be concerned with the changes which took place between Old English and Middle English, as this would reveal any possible Creolization or Celtic influence on the language. Or Norse influence for that matter.
And Benjamin, what were you hoping to convey by bringing up the North Germanic languages? Is English grammar more similar to that of Danish, Swedish, etc, than it is to other W. Germanic languages? If that is the case then I would want to read up on possible Norse superstratums. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
And Benjamin, what were you hoping to convey by bringing up the North Germanic languages? Is English grammar more similar to that of Danish, Swedish, etc, than it is to other W. Germanic languages?
In a way, yes. In Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian, there isn't the concept of putting verbs to the end of the sentence in certain situations, like in German, Dutch and Afrikaans.
In Norwegian, for example:
de reiser til Norge — they travel to Norway
de vil reise til Norge — they will travel to Norway
de skal reise til Norge — they shall travel to Norway
de liker reise til Norge — they like travelling to Norway
de har reist til Norge — they have travelled to Norway
And Benjamin, what were you hoping to convey by bringing up the North Germanic languages? Is English grammar more similar to that of Danish, Swedish, etc, than it is to other W. Germanic languages?
In a way, yes. In Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian, there isn't the concept of putting verbs to the end of the sentence in certain situations, like in German, Dutch and Afrikaans.
In Norwegian, for example:
de reiser til Norge — they travel to Norway
de vil reise til Norge — they will travel to Norway
de skal reise til Norge — they shall travel to Norway
de liker reise til Norge — they like travelling to Norway
de har reist til Norge — they have travelled to Norway
What I know of Norse contributions is three of our pronouns, and a few common words like "die" and "window", and "gate". But what other influence did it have? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
However, I don't know what aspects of English can be attributed to Old Norse. The other thing about grammar is that both English and Scandinavian grammar have changed considerably since Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse (which to a large extent were mutually intelligible anyway), despite many resemblances today.
I've just remembered that I have a text message on my phone from a Norwegian friend two years ago:
Hei Daniel. Beklager at jeg ikke har svart før! Veldig hyggelig å høre fra deg. Jeg drar til Norge på ferie om noen uker men blir ikke der lenge. Du må komme med Matthew til Stirling en dag! Tekster deg når jeg drar til Glasgow. Christopher sier hei! Han vil også møte deg igjen. John.
Translation:
Hey Daniel. Sorry that I haven't replied earlier! Very nice to hear from you. I go to Norway on holiday in a few weeks' time but am not staying there long. You must come to Stirling with Matthew one day! Text you when I get to Glasgow. Christopher says hi! He will also meet you again. John.
Word-for-word translation:
Hey Daniel. Apologise that I not have answered earlier! Very nice to hear from you. I go to Norway on holiday in few weeks but stay not there long. You must come with Matthew to Stirling one day! Text you when I go to Glasgow. Christopher says hi! He will also meet you again. John. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
which to a large extent were mutually intelligible anyway
Yes, that is true. The Danes and the Anglo-Saxons could more or less converse in eachother's langauges and still be understood, although each one adapted his speech to the others, perhaps resulting in a creole which is what happens when two distinct languages come into close contact. Creoles usually greatly simplify the grammar system of the parent langauge, and draw on certain traits from the contact language to form a simplified, hybrid of both. There is some evidence to suggest that this happened to English, and a lot of research is being done on the matter.
There's also the issue of compound nouns. In Germanic languages, including English, you usually just put the two words together, whereas in Romance languages, you have to use 'de' (at least in French and Spanish). For example, in English you say 'door handle', in German you say 'Türhandgriff', whilst in French, you say 'poignée de porte', and in Spanish you say 'tirador de puerta'.
Pas toujours, Benjamin : aide-mémoire, avant-garde, arrière-boutique, casse-pieds, deux-pièces, faire-part, garde-chasse, gratte-papier, non-dit, nouveau-né, porte-clef, porte-plume, réveille-matin, sans-cœur, SDF, timbre-poste, tire-ligne etc.
Benjamin wrote:
And there's also the issue of 'split verbs' — in English, we often say things like 'I hang my coat up', 'I turn the light on', 'I blow the candle out', 'I turn the volume down', 'I give the pencil back', 'I push the door to' etc. This is also very common in other Germanic languages, but does not exist in Romance languages.
Si, ça existe, mais c'est moins fréquent : aller avec , être contre/pour, faire avec, faire sans, sortir avec, s'y croire, y aller, y croire etc.
Porthos wrote:
But I don't care what it was centuries ago.
So why did you ask about a « possible Celtic substratum in Anglic languages » ?
Porthos wrote:
I really fail to understand why Porthos is only interested in knowing why the English language is the way it is WITHOUT looking at its past.
So do I. Especially when the question asked is precisely about a « possible Celtic substratum in Anglic languages ».
Porthos wrote:
What I said to Benjamin is that extinct grammatical rules in English do not help a modern English speaker understand those same sentence structures in a modern foreign language.
Yes, but « extinct grammatical rules in English » do help a lot to ascertain whether there was a « Celtic substratum in Anglic languages » impacting Old-English syntax & morphology, or not.
Porthos wrote:
I don't claim that it's less "Germanic" per se, but it is an undeniable fact that English has a *much* larger pool of Romance words it makes use of when compared to other Germanic languages.
No, one may deny it. Scots has roughly the same amount of French words as English. The "rate" for Dutch and German may be lower, although by no means insignificant.
Porthos wrote:
We don't have multiple genders.
Yes, you do. You've got four semantic genders (like French) : semantic masculine, semantic feminine, semantic strong neuter & semantic weak neuter ; and three grammatical genders (like German) : grammatical masculine, grammatical feminine & grammatical neuter.
Porthos wrote:
But most importantly, our cognates we share with other Germanic languages are often unrecognizable, while those we share with Romance languages, which do abound in numbers, jump right out at is with the same or similar spelling.
Really ? Tell us what's the difference between the two lists (except that they involve different languages) :
Ball — ball
beginnen — begin
Bett — bed
Dieb — thief
England — England
Feuer — fire
Fisch — fish
Freund — friend
grün — green
gut — good
Hand — hand
Haus — house
hier — here
hungrig — hungry
Mann — man
Maus — mouse
oft — often
Schottland — Scotland
Sommer — summer
trinken — drink
zehn — ten
waschen — wash
Wasser — water
Winter — winter
Wort — word
Really ? Tell us what's the difference between the two lists (except that they involve different languages) :
Ball — ball
beginnen — begin
Bett — bed
Dieb — thief
England — England
Feuer — fire
Fisch — fish
Freund — friend
grün — green
gut — good
Hand — hand
Haus — house
hier — here
hungrig — hungry
Mann — man
Maus — mouse
oft — often
Schottland — Scotland
Sommer — summer
trinken — drink
zehn — ten
waschen — wash
Wasser — water
Winter — winter
Wort — word
Sure, you can conviniently find several cognates that are easily recognizable out of thousands of words which make up a language.
How much of the following would an English speaker understand?
Der Gemeine Vampir (Desmodus rotundus) ist eine in Amerika lebende Fledermausart. Das Attribut „gemein“ ist im Sinn von „gewöhnlich/allgemein“ zu verstehen und deutet an, dass diese Spezies die bekannteste – und auch am besten erforschte – der drei Arten der Vampirfledermäuse ist, der einzigen Säugetiergruppe, die sich ausschließlich vom Blut anderer Tiere ernährt. Gemeine Vampire sind als Überträger von Krankheiten wie der Tollwut auf Nutztiere und Menschen gefürchtet; gleichzeitig liefert ein gerinnungshemmendes Enzym in ihrem Speichel wichtige Impulse für die medizinische Forschung. Die Tiere haben ihren Namen von der Sagengestalt des Vampirs, und nicht wie oft angenommen, umgekehrt. mehr
Or how about a North Germanic langauge, but a Germanic language nonetheless:
Danmark är en marknadsekonomi med ett högteknologiskt jordbruk, modern industri, hög välfärd och en bra levnadsstandard, en stabil valuta och ett stort beroende av handel med utlandet. Danmark är en nettoexportör av mat och energi, och har en bra betalningsbalans.
75% av den danska arbetskraften är medlemmar i fackföreningar, och förhållandet mellan fackföreningarna och arbetsgivarna bygger på ett bra samarbete, då fackföreningarna har en daglig roll i att sköta arbetsplatserna, och deras representatörer sitter ofta i de stora företagens styrelser. Lön och arbetstider förhandlas fram mellan fackföreningar och arbetsgivare, med minimal statlig inblandning. Arbetslösheten 2007 (april) var 3,7% (102.100 personer). Arbetslösheten väntas uppgå till 65.000 år 2015; arbetsmarknaden växer med 10.000 arbetstillfällen till sammanlagt 2.860.000 och antalet heltidsarbetsplatser med 70.000 till 2.790.000.
Den danska regeringen har lyckats mer än väl med att nå de ekonomiska mål som krävs för att delta i EMU:s tredje fas, det vill säga att delta i valutasamarbetet. Dock röstade de danska medborgarna i september 2000 nej till att införa euron. Den danska valutan är däremot ändå knuten till euron.
Danmark har nästan inga råvaror alls. Landet är självförsörjande med sand, lera, grus, salt, kalksten och krita. År 1970 hittade man olja och gas i den danska delen av Nordsjön.
Or how about English's closest continental neighbor, Frisian?
Man hat gjin wetlik fêstleine, offisjele taal, mar de taal dy’t it Manske regear brûkt is it Ingelsk, dat dêrom as offisjele taal beskôge wurde kin. It Mansk, de oarspronklike taal fan Man, genietet in beskate erkenning yn ’e wet en wurdt by spesjale gelegenheden noch brûkt yn it Manske parlemint.
An English speaker would understand far more from Romance texts than these other Germanic languages. If you were to take 1,000 English speakers off the street, and ask them which language they understood most, they would choose a language like French, because they would be able to identify a lot more words than in a language like Frisian, even though English is related to Frisian.
Persian (Farsi) is more closely related to English than it is to Arabic, as the former two are both Indo-European langauges while Arabic is not. Yet do you honestly believe that a Persian speaker would understand more English than Arabic, when Arabic loanwords constitute 60% of Persian vocabulary? The Indo-European cognates shared by English and Persian would not be recognizable to the Persian speaker, because over the course of their evolution, the cognates have been rendered incomprehensible. The exact same is true in a lot of cases with English and its relation to other Germanic languages. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I still think you place far too much importance on the written language, and on written mutual intelligibility.
Even so, if someone was to read the texts I provided, it would be no easier for an English speaker to understand it. And an English speaker would still catch quite a few more cognates with French or Spanish than he would with Danish or German, given those texts. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
What you fail to realise though is that the texts which you have quoted are essentially academic texts — they do not represent every-day sort of language.
A normal English speaker would find this sentence incomprehensible:
Eng - man cannot live by bread alone
Dutch - de mens kan niet alleen van brood leven
Word for, this would be: "The men can not alone by bread live".
You say I place too much emphasis on wrriten language. Yet oral differences are even greater than written ones. Because of what I know of Dutch, I could understand this sentence, but only after carefully examining each word and then reconstructing the sentence to fit English syntax. When I listen to this being spoken, I don't understand what is being said at all.
I learned this very day, the Dutch words "leven", "brood", and "alleen", but if I didn't know these words, all of these words would not have been recognizable to me, as they were not when I learned them a couple of hours ago. I thought "leven" = leaven, as in leavened bread.[/i] _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
A normal English speaker would find this sentence incomprehensible:
Eng - man cannot live by bread alone
Dutch - de mens kan niet alleen van brood leven
Well, 'les hommes ne peuvent pas vivre de seulement du pain', or however one would translate that highly idiomatic phrase into French, would be significantly less comprehensible to a monolingual English speaker than the Dutch translation — both in written and spoken forms.
Porthos wrote:
Yet oral differences are even greater than written ones.
Between English and French, definitely. Between French and Spanish, possibly. But between English and German/Dutch, I don't think so.
Porthos wrote:
I learned this very day, the Dutch words "leven", "brood", and "alleen", but if I didn't know these words, all of these words would not have been recognizable to me, as they were not when I learned them a couple of hours ago.
I hate to say this, but that's not a credit to your own intelligence.
Porthos wrote:
I thought "leven" = leaven, as in leavened bread.
If you'd heard it spoken, you would most likely have thought either 'live' or 'leave', because the final -n is not pronounced, at least in Standard Dutch.
Particularly so with regards to English — and especially US English — versus any Romance language.
Interesting — so does written American English use more Latin-derived vocabulary than, say, written British English does?
No, but I have noticed that some British-English dialect speakers seem to use Romance words less often, in their own dialects. This of course could be attributed to the fact that they're using their dialect in very informal situations, or because they're uneducated, and don't speak standard English as taught in schools with ease. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
With an English translation side by side with the above sentence, one can most likely see the similarities and understand what each word corresponds to in English. But without this translation, very few English speakers would be able to understand what is being said. The words are too different.
To test this out, I showed the sentence to and played the sound sample to several people, all native English speakers. Not one of them had any clue what was being said. 4 out of 5 of them recognized "mens", but they couldn't relate to any of the other words. Apparently Benjamin, I'm not that stupid afterall.
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