The so-called Australian Shepherd is an American breed based on Basque sheepdogs imported with their owners to herd sheep in the western US:
If you watch the beginning of Brokeback Mountain, where the main characters' herd of sheep gets entwined with a different herd, you will see that the other sheepherders have these dogs and are speaking an unintelligible language as they try to wrestle the sheep apart. Based on those things, I have assumed that they were, in fact, Basques. (The main characters had Australian cattle dogs -- blue heelers -- in tow.
Lol! So amazing, really I didn't knew that this "basque" race existed. I didn't saw many Australian sheepdogs, the most famous in Basque Country's landscapes is the sheepdog Border-Collie (I have one), A very sympathetic and cuddly dog!:
Another sheepdog, the "Patou des Pyrénées", so brave and strong (the great ennemy of wolfs and other pyrinean predators)
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I had no idea Echevarria was a Basque name -- it's not uncommon here. I assume Chavarria is a variant -- also common.
Reminds me the name of a famous man... Che Guevarra (or in Basque Gebara), or another important character of the South-American history: Simón Bolívar (basque Bolibar Ardanza)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography
[quote="fab"]
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So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, )
Hello Porthos, I'm back !
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for most Europeans, English brings to mind things associated with England or the British Isles
Actually I think it is more the inverse for most people.
In my case, I discovered England much later after the US. As a kid I travelled often to the US, espcially in Florida and New York, where I had my first direct contacts with English language.
We associate English with England obviously for the name and origin of the language - but in the same time I think that thank of the influence of the USA we have much more contact with English language thru the US, which are now more the real center or the English speaking world than England.
But, basically, most people doesn't dissocied British and American culture as much as you do. Of course most people are aware of the differences of both countries (to which we could include also Australia)
concerning popular music, which is in big part English-speaking in french FM, the differenciation is not made as strong as you would do. when I was a kid I didn't knew where this or that famous singer was from - American or English. when I grew up I discovered that a lot of singers and groups of the eighties that I thought to be American where in fact English. while others I thought to be English revealed themselves to be Americans.
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which are all very much like the things associated with the Netherlands and Germany. So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, ), the natural tendency is to see English as being represenative of a Germanic culture, and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others. But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.
If I see English as a germanic language it is not because I associate it with Nations like Netherlands or Germany, but because Enlish IS a germanic language. To me German is not "more" representative of germanic cultures than English, because in French we don't have that confusion between "germanique" and "Allemand". but because in English, the word "Germanic" sounds like saying "coming from Germany" - a lot of people try to avoid the association because Germany seem to carry a relatively negative image to some. But to me, no confusion! : L'Allemand et l'Anglais sont des langues germaniques au même titre.
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But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.
far removed, but in a country, which was founded and firstly populated by northern Europeans - not that of a such different "ethnic background" as you think. I myself would have real difficulties to recognise an English from an American, the accent and clothes could give a clue.
You will say "Americans are not only from northern Europe", yes, true, but English are not either, especially in modern times. you really should go to London to realise how similar it is culturally to a big American city, despite of the obvious differences due to the geography and the recent history.
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In some ways, I see English as being tied to Black Americans, and their very distinct culture. I picture the AAVE of the inner cities of America, and somehow cannot for the life of me see much of a similaritiy between that culture and people, and the culture of northern Europe.
yes, and we also often associate English with Reaggae and Jamaica, which is very strongly associated and blended into British modern culture.
[quote]I see English as being tied to the inhabitants of New York, and I think mainly of all the Italians and Jews and their very distinct sub-culture and accents, and I can't possibly associate that culture with those of northern Europe. [quote]
That's exatly the same in London, which is a city organized like New-York in sub-district for each "community": Jew, Italian, Chinese, pakistanese, etc. there is not much really Londoner of "pure" english roots. This "salad boyl" is a very tipical thing of the English-speaking first world.
[quote] In my mind I also see all of the tanned skin, bikin-clad, vibrant peoples of southern California, Miami, Florida, and Hawaii, and Australia, and the warm, sub-tropical and or mediterranean climates associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that are not of northern European descent, but primarily Latin-American and Pacific Islander.
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In Austalia a big part of the population still quite tipical of northern European ancestry. and in california, even if things change quikcly due to the migratory pressure, it still have a "anglo" population wich continues to lead the regions (your governor's is not very Mexican!)
you can ask Benjamin, similar phenomenons occur in Britain. I think that most poeple in his own city would not correspond really to what you think of being British - but are de facto north Europeans as much as the latin-American Americans of California are Americans.
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Similarly, with Spanish, Spain doesn't come to mind so much as Latin America does. When I think of Spanish my mind sees the sun-scorched stretches of desert in Mexico, and the tropics of Central America and the Caribbean. I think of hot, humid rainforests, warm beaches, deserts, Afro-influenced music and dance, beer (not wine like the viticulture of Spain), Mestizo and Mulatto peoples, spicy food, coffee plantations and coffee itself, etc. Much of those things are not things which we would normally associate with Spain or Latin Europe, but most Europeans probably think of Spain in association with Spanish because of their close proximity to the country. As a Californian, a very different image comes to mind.
what is interesting is that all the latin-american things you spoke about what evoques you spanish language represent only a part of latin-america, the less "latinized", (or at least the one with more amerindian and African influences which gave the "exotic" thing in it) : mezo-america; the tropical part of the Americas.
A big part of latin-America has very few to see with it, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and southern parts of Brazil - those countries would associate more with Europe.
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And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture.
in fact they were, they developped their own way, and, since the post WW2 it is more or less the inverse. the US has a lot of influence over England - as they have in toher places in the world - but stronger due to the vehicule of the language. Let's just see huge amounts of bagel stores or starbucks coffeas in London, with multiethnic populations and traders in costume, the same as in New York.
The last time I've been to London, two months ago, was after having been to NewYork and US a few times. being in London's ambiance remind me so much in smells, attitudes, people, architecture, the ambiances I had in the USA that I had the impression of being very far from home.
for me this would be the kind of ambiance I would associate with English language
concerning Spanish, I alway associated it with Spain. In fact in Europe we have not a direct exposure of Hispano-American cultures, while Spain is a close neighbour. most Spanish teatchers are Spanish or at least speak the castillian way. A lot of french people have spanish roots or ancestry and it is easy to go even simply for a weekend.
But for people who don't have a specific interes to Spain they tend to reduce the country to the Andalucian stereotypes, because it was the image of Spain that was promoted by franco's regime to carry tourism to southern Spain. Since the eighties the image of Spain has been deeply tranformed and is now more in relation with the reality.
I think most people doesn't have a clear vision of how are the hispano american countries. Some people not interested in the question can tend to think that they are a direct transportation of Spain in the Americas.
when I was a kid, when I thought Spanish, I saw that :
I think most people doesn't have a clear vision of how are the hispano american countries. Some people not interested in the question can tend to think that they are a direct transportation of Spain in the Americas.
Yes, and as you and I both know, this is far from true, what with all the Meso-American influences in Mexico, Central America, and the Afro influence in the Carribbean.
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Hello Porthos, I'm back !
Bienvenue mon vieil ami!
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We associate English with England obviously for the name and origin of the language - but in the same time I think that thank of the influence of the USA we have much more contact with English language thru the US, which are now more the real center or the English speaking world than England.
Well yeah. The U.S. has about 300 million English speakers, whereas Britain has about 60 million. But when you think of the historical development of English, you think of where that took place, which is England.
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But, basically, most people doesn't dissocied British and American culture as much as you do. Of course most people are aware of the differences of both countries (to which we could include also Australia)
No, most people do. Perhaps the French don't, but most people I've met aside from Francophones, see the two countries as being seperate cultural entities. Ask Benjamin, an Englishman, or Uriel or I, both Americans, how we feel about our cultural differences. England is no less foreign to me as an American, than the Netherlands or Germany. Language is the only thing we share in common. Aside from that, England's culture is much more like the Netherlands or Germany than it is like the U.S. Even British peoples disposition and demeanor are very typical of northwestern Europeans, but very different from Americans, so much so, that as an American, I can often pick them out of a crowd just by observing them, without even hearing them speak. David Beckham and his wife were part of several interviews on TV recently, and they repeatedly spoke of learning to adjust to the "drastically different" culture in the U.S.
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If I see English as a germanic language it is not because I associate it with Nations like Netherlands or Germany, but because Enlish IS a germanic language. To me German is not "more" representative of germanic cultures than English, because in French we don't have that confusion between "germanique" and "Allemand". but because in English, the word "Germanic" sounds like saying "coming from Germany" - a lot of people try to avoid the association because Germany seem to carry a relatively negative image to some. But to me, no confusion! : L'Allemand et l'Anglais sont des langues germaniques au même titre.
No, I don't think so. Not for any learned people that is. I for one, would never associate "Germanic" predominantly with "Germany", but instead in my mind, it encompasses all of the Germanic speaking Europe, so there is no confusion either. To me, English is clearly a Germanic language, but I don't associate the culture attached to the language with Germanic culture the same way I would, Dutch or German, because first and foremost, when I think of English I think of America, and there is very little "Germanicness" attached to America, whereas England has a "Germanic", or "northwestern European" climate, cuisine, culture, architecture, etc.
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far removed, but in a country, which was founded and firstly populated by northern Europeans - not that of a such different "ethnic background" as you think. I myself would have real difficulties to recognise an English from an American, the accent and clothes could give a clue.
You will say "Americans are not only from northern Europe", yes, true, but English are not either, especially in modern times. you really should go to London to realise how similar it is culturally to a big American city, despite of the obvious differences due to the geography and the recent history.
Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. British immigration from the last 50 years, in no way compares to America's share of immigration over the course of its entire history. In America, the number of immigrants surpassed that of the native population, and overtook them in numbers, so that the number of Americans of English heritage has been reduced to a small percentage of the population. In Britian, the native population has remained a dominant majority, with about 90% of the population being of British background.
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In Austalia a big part of the population still quite tipical of northern European ancestry. and in california, even if things change quikcly due to the migratory pressure, it still have a "anglo" population wich continues to lead the regions (your governor's is not very Mexican!)
Think again. Where I live, Hispanics are a clear majority, making up 70% of the population, and for most of them, there is nothing Anglo about them at all. They've transformed their community into a Mexican cultural enclave. They attend Church with Spanish language services, watch Spanish language television, speak Spanish at home, eat virtually nothing but Mexican cuisine, and hold strictly to their Hispanic-Catholic based family traditions. Hispanics already make up about 40% of California's population, and within one generation, they will make up close to 65% of it, with Asians comprising another 13%, blacks another 9%, and whites (only about a tenth of whom are of British descent) making up 13% of the population.
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in fact they were, they developped their own way, and, since the post WW2 it is more or less the inverse. the US has a lot of influence over England - as they have in toher places in the world - but stronger due to the vehicule of the language. Let's just see huge amounts of bagel stores or starbucks coffeas in London, with multiethnic populations and traders in costume, the same as in New York.
The last time I've been to London, two months ago, was after having been to NewYork and US a few times. being in London's ambiance remind me so much in smells, attitudes, people, architecture, the ambiances I had in the USA that I had the impression of being very far from home.
They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent! The result is bound to be a very different product from the original ingredient. When you make a recipe, do you judge or categorize the recipe only by one ingredient. So, would you say a cake mix is nothing but raw eggs, only because that was the first ingredient used? Or would you look at the whole picture, and see that the cake mix, after the mixture of other ingredients, has become something very different from raw eggs? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
In Britian, the native population has remained a dominant majority, with about 90% of the population being of British background.
I think you confusing the fact that about 90% of people in Britain look 'white' with them being from a British background. There are lots of 'white' people in Britain who are not mainly of British descent — for example, there are millions of people of Irish descent (although I realise that many people would not see this as completely separate from the 'British' concept), millions of people of Polish descent plus at least a million first generation Polish immigrants, and lots of other people descended from other places in Europe.
Fab is right that Birmingham has relatively little affinity with what you could consider to be 'typically English/British'. It's very modern, and if you walk around the city centre, you'll find that most people you see there do not look 'white'.
You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking. In my view, the Netherlands has as much in common with England as with Germany, and in many ways, I think it actually seems more similar to England.
You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking.
yes, that is what I also think - netherlands seem to me quite clearly the most similar country to England. In almost all ways, climate, architecture, food, people, way of life, landscapes, etc. and language. Dutch and English seem to me as much similar than dutch and german - and Dutch people almost all speak fluent perfect english.
and those places, could you say where are they from ?
They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent!
is that not also the case of imigration countries such as Uruguay or Argentina for exemple ? does they have nothing in common with Spain ?
why those countries are not like USA, since they all have been "lving their own way" on the same continent, with strong emigration waves of peoples coming from different places of Europe, north and south. How could it happened to them to have different culture ?
You forget that "living it own way" doesn't mean starting from zero. the political and cultural entities that are called countries have an herency, which is not just made of the addition of the imigrants's identities.
If the italian people that have emigrated to Argentina in the 19th/20th century would have emigrated to the USA instead they would have been culturally "anglo" - actually can you say that an American of Italian origin and a Argentinean of Italian origins have the same culture and identity ? Of course not, because they have emigrated to political entities that had a different cultural background, and that made them now two people of very different culture.
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When you make a recipe, do you judge or categorize the recipe only by one ingredient. So, would you say a cake mix is nothing but raw eggs, only because that was the first ingredient used? Or would you look at the whole picture, and see that the cake mix, after the mixture of other ingredients, has become something very different from raw eggs?
Once again you seem don't want to understand that what had made United states an "Anglo" country is not a question of "ethnic" origin of the settlers, but of the cultural legacy they have left in the foundations of it. the following imigration waves of the 19 had integrated in that cultural entity; even if they kept some etnic pride in their nation of origin and some superficial idealized characteristics. once again, if those same people would have emigrated to Argentina, their decendance would have been culturally Argentinean - a different thing than United statian.
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whereas England has a "Germanic", or "northwestern European" climate, cuisine, culture, architecture, etc.
concerning the architecture, you can have a lot in my previous post and try to answer it.
concerning the climate, I have difficulties to understand what could mean a germanic climate. Inside germanic Europe you find various climates. London's mild oceanic climate has definitly few in common with Berlin's continental one.
if you think the USA to be so climatically different from northern Europe it may be because your vision of US is southern California, which might be not really representative of the whole US. You would be surprise to discover that most of the "cold northern Europe" that you imagine have in fact much milder winters that the great majority of the US. And that places like Milan or Madrid usually have quite much colder winters than London.
concerning cooking, I always find northern European foods very similar to American ones.
concerning culture, northern Europe and united states share related languages and a strong protestant influence, which shaped the societies.
There is still a significant number of descendants of Basque origin residing in the Philippines. Some of them still speak Basque (as well as Filipino).
The crew members and navigators on the ship that Ferdinand Magellan sailed on to the Philippines were in fact Basque.
Nowadays, only about 8,000 people still speak Spanish in the Philippine archipelago. There are even three Spanish-based Creoles that still survive. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
Well Wanderin, you're Russian, aren't you?
Look this French advertissment (I watched it today...):
A fuuny one thanks for sharing, though some people here can be very offended, actually I'm very against communism, but the thing is not in communism, but we are still the same people and parade on the Red Squere is a thing to be proud of your country and it is still held on Victory Day and actually this commercial doesn't respect people's feelings, especially of older generations... _________________
A fuuny one thanks for sharing, though some people here can be very offended, actually I'm very against communism, but the thing is not in communism, but we are still the same people and parade on the Red Squere is a thing to be proud of your country and it is still held on Victory Day and actually this commercial doesn't respect people's feelings, especially of older generations...
Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.
Us, without the SFIC (French Section of the Communist International), our French republic, certainly would have disappeared in front of fascism (without the Popular Front), and our Gaullist regime (semi-democratic) would have continued to rage, if there had not been "Mai 68".
A May 1968 poster: "Be young and shut up", with stereotypical silhouette of General de Gaulle.
(Counter exhibition to the 1931 Colonial Exhibition in Paris, during which human beings were displayed in cages),
The French Communist Party (PCF) as (PCI, Italian Communist Party, PCE, Spanish Communist Party) didn't disappeared, now with other "partis de gauche", they are the first ones to defend human rights and to attack inequitable state mesures as redundancy...
Social and Communist traditional newspapers: Canard Enchaîné, a satirical newspaper published weekly in France of Socialist and Communist affiliations:
(Rainbow Warrior)
(Voile et Laïcité)
(Polémique)
(2nd Polémique)
(other, with Poutine)
(Ecology)
(A last one)
L'humanité newspaper founded by Jean Jaurès in 1904, a French socialism figure:
(1994, Génocide du Rwanda, French implications)
To return in this pub, it's funny, but certainly very stupid too. I'm not proud of that, with this situation of Capitalism-Communism quarrels...
Last edited by Irrintzi on Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:17 pm; edited 5 times in total
Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.
I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
Yes, I can't say Soviet-style, because I think that Russia was on the right track, until that it slips in dictatorship and tyrannical regime with Stalin. If Trotsky have been the leader in favour of Stalin, the world would have been very different now.
Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.
I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
That's true. The Hungarian revolution of 1956 was lead by Communists, too. It wasn't against communism but against Soviet-style communism, i.e. communist dictatorship and political dependency from the USSR. However, most people fallaciously interpret it as a revolution against communism.
Many people claim that there is no humane communism - that communism is inherently bad. I'm positive that the original "inventors" of the idea of communism didn't have bad intentions and they would be rolling in their graves if they knew what the likes of Stalin had done to it. At the same time, I doubt that communism is a plausible idea - the implementation would be almost impossible as people are too greedy and they cling tenaciously on to their property.
Irrintzi wrote:
Yes, I can't say Soviet-style, because I think that Russia was on the right track, until that it slips in dictatorship with Stalin. If Trotsky have been the leader in favour of Stalin, the world would have been very different now.
You are right - it's rather inaccurate to say "Soviet-style communism" because of the reasons you mentioned. However, even historians call it that way. Yes, Trotsky might have been a better leader. Legend (or not just legend) has it that Lenin wanted Trotsky to be his successor and he thought it would be dangerous if Stalin would ever come to power. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Name me a successfully-run Communist state and I'd be a disciple of Marx for life.
Fabien:
I also noticed the 'te koop' sign in one of the photographs and that basically gave the picture away.
Another clue would be to see in which direction traffic flows: on the right or on the left. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Name me a successfully-run Communist state and I'd be a disciple of Marx for life.
I can't because, as I said, the idea is not plausible. Besides, none of the communist states followed Marx' path. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
I can't because, as I said, the idea is not plausible. Besides, none of the communist states followed Marx' path.
I have not read Das Kapital so I am not au fait with Marxism. I would like to point out though, George Orwell's disillusionment with the Soviet Union and how he was inspired to write Animal Farm to point out what he perceived to be the Soviet leaders' betrayal of the trust invested in them by the people.
Maybe the best run Communist state in terms of ensuring basic standards of living for its people has to be Cuba - and that is nothing to write home about.
China has dropped all pretentions to be a Communist society and she is now basically a capitalist society with the veneer of Stalinist-Maoist ideals underpinning the authoritarian government.
North Korea is a joke. Her leader is a clown who needs to get a better hairdresser. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
Now, what exactly makes Soviet communism less "real"? Anyone can write a book. What the soviets did was apply the theory to real life -- and when theory meets reality, there are always modifications that have to take place. Seems to me that Soviet communism was a sight more real, for being flesh and blood, than some words on paper that Karl Marx wrote.
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thanks for sharing, though some people here can be very offended, actually I'm very against communism, but the thing is not in communism, but we are still the same people and parade on the Red Squere is a thing to be proud of your country and it is still held on Victory Day and actually this commercial doesn't respect people's feelings, especially of older generations...
), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.
