It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
Now, what exactly makes Soviet communism less "real"? Anyone can write a book. What the soviets did was apply the theory to real life -- and when theory meets reality, there are always modifications that have to take place. Seems to me that Soviet communism was a sight more real, for being flesh and blood, than some words on paper that Karl Marx wrote.
True, true. What Benjamin is calling "true" communism is more like "utopian" communism. Sure, it sounds great, but as history shows, after being tried time and time again, it fails to meet the test of reality. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking. In my view, the Netherlands has as much in common with England as with Germany, and in many ways, I think it actually seems more similar to England.
Yes I agree. I've never been to either country, but from tv and the internet, I get the impression based on the weather, architecture, and other things, that England and the Netherlands share a very similar ambiance, and in many ways, the Netherlands shares more in common with England than it does with Germany. The Netherlands as a whole is probably in between England and Germany, and that is even reflected in its language, which is somewhat a bridge between English and German, albeit much closer to German overall. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent!
is that not also the case of imigration countries such as Uruguay or Argentina for exemple ? does they have nothing in common with Spain ?
why those countries are not like USA, since they all have been "lving their own way" on the same continent, with strong emigration waves of peoples coming from different places of Europe, north and south. How could it happened to them to have different culture ?
You forget that "living it own way" doesn't mean starting from zero. the political and cultural entities that are called countries have an herency, which is not just made of the addition of the imigrants's identities.
If the italian people that have emigrated to Argentina in the 19th/20th century would have emigrated to the USA instead they would have been culturally "anglo" - actually can you say that an American of Italian origin and a Argentinean of Italian origins have the same culture and identity ? Of course not, because they have emigrated to political entities that had a different cultural background, and that made them now two people of very different culture.
Ta remarque est très juste, fab. Et ton photoquestionnaire est également très pertinent — et très astucieux. Ce que Porthos a peut-être du mal à comprendre c'est que l'existence d'une diversité culturelle au sein d'une société n'abolit pas, jusqu'à présent, les caractéristiques fondamentales de la matrice-hôte. Il suffit d'envisager le phénomène de la diversification culturelle à travers les pays ou sociétés pour se rendre compte que les facteurs d'évolution ne suffisent pas à contrecarrer tous les effets de l'invariance structurelle.
Il est vrai qu'un Uruguayen, un Français ou un États-unien, tous trois d'origine italienne, seront séparés par des barrières culturelles incontournables — sauf, naturellement, si nous parlons de trois nomades authentiquement cosmopolites, voire polyglottes (on peut rêver...).
fab wrote:
concerning the architecture, you can have a lot in my previous post and try to answer it.
(...)
concerning cooking, I always find northern European foods very similar to American ones.
concerning culture, northern Europe and united states share related languages and a strong protestant influence, which shaped the societies.
Absolument. Et au-delà de la nature acatholique du christianisme en question, c'est certainement la prégnance du fait religieux dans le regard social qui intrigue dès le premier abord.
I agree that Britain and the Netherlands share many similarities. They hold very different views regarding the EU however, with the latter having been one of the founding nations.
Who are 'they'? I think that there are a variety attitudes towards the EU held in all countries, and at least in Britain, which attitudes are 'typical' varies a lot by region within the country. I don't think it's fair to characterise the attitudes of an entire country based upon the government's policies.
Who are 'they'? I think that there are a variety attitudes towards the EU held in all countries, and at least in Britain, which attitudes are 'typical' varies a lot by region within the country. I don't think it's fair to characterise the attitudes of an entire country based upon the government's policies.
But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?
They hold very different views regarding the EU however, with the latter having been one of the founding nations
true that Netherlands is in the "Euro zone" and is one of the foundators of the UE. but we shouldn't forget that nowadays the EU is not that much popular, netherlands rejected, as France, the UE constitution.
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.
Quote:
But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?
You think so? Quite honestly, I'm completely unfamiliar with the governments of most countries. There are only a handful of heads of state I could even name, much less pick out of a crowd. (It's a running joke that we never have any idea who's running Canada, for instance. Or -- you know -- care.) As for their political bents, I would be entirely at a loss. Most countries' political parties and systems are only vaguely comparable to each other's, anyway. So politics rarely colors my conception of other countries. _________________ An apple a day....
But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?
You think so? Quite honestly, I'm completely unfamiliar with the governments of most countries. There are only a handful of heads of state I could even name, much less pick out of a crowd. (It's a running joke that we never have any idea who's running Canada, for instance. Or -- you know -- care.) As for their political bents, I would be entirely at a loss. Most countries' political parties and systems are only vaguely comparable to each other's, anyway. So politics rarely colors my conception of other countries.
I meant governments' actions and attitudes. For instance, if your government decided to bomb another village somewhere in the world, you wouldn't have any say in the matter. If our glorious government here decided to make it more difficult for newly arrived refugees to get a residence permit, I wouldn't have any say in the matter.
Politics doesn't very often color my perception of other countries, either. I'm just saying that we have no power and whining won't make any difference (unless there's a whole lot of you and you keep whining for ages).
Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say.
I think it's precisely because ordinary people aren't terribly involved in government decisions or policies that I tend to pay little attention to governments when I think of countries. Plus, regimes and administrations change all the time -- they aren't a very reliable indicator of the country as a whole. _________________ An apple a day....
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.
Uriel,
Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?
that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...
I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.
Uriel,
Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?
that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...
I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...
I've even noticed that Dutch people and English people have very similar dispositions. They have this air about them, that allows one to identify them even without hearing them speak. Or maybe it's just an uncanny ability that I have. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I don't think you can say that the Netherlands are more similar to England than to Germany. Of course, you can't compare southern Bavaria with Holland, but Bavaria isn't Germany either. When most people think of Germany, they seldom seem to have the image of Central or Northern Germany in mind, but that of the alpine region of Germany.
When I've been to Ireland for instance, I didn't notice much of a difference between this country and England. So, I feel that those countries (together with the other countries of the British Isles probably) do have this typical "British" ambience (yes I know, Ireland is not British ) which is quite different from the ambience of other European countries, like that of the Netherlands or Germany! And I know loads of people who actually think the same. I'm not only talking of landscapes and architecture but also of culture. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
I don't think you can say that the Netherlands are more similar to England than to Germany. Of course, you can't compare southern Bavaria with Holland, but Bavaria isn't Germany either. When most people think of Germany, they seldom seem to have the image of Central or Northern Germany in mind, but that of the alpine region of Germany.
When I've been to Ireland for instance, I didn't notice much of a difference between this country and England. So, I feel that those countries (together with the other countries of the British Isles probably) do have this typical "British" ambience (yes I know, Ireland is not British ) which is quite different from the ambience of other European countries, like that of the Netherlands or Germany! And I know loads of people who actually think the same. I'm not only talking of landscapes and architecture but also of culture.
I would agree with that. But Europe has this cultural continuum, where the ambience of the Netherlands is much like northwestern Germany and England, but very different from Bavaria and Austria. The British Isles would have a somewhat unique ambience due to the fact that they're situated off the coast of the continent, both foggy, damp, green, cold, English speaking, beer-binge-drinking countries, with the same architecture, landscape, similar eating habits, and a shared language.
In my mind, you can divide northern Europe into several cultural entities. The British Isles could fit into one category, and the Netherlands and northern Germany could fit in another, while under different classification, the British Isles and the Netherlands could fit together, and Germany, with a Bavarian-centric mentality, could be in another group with Austria and Switzerland. But I would say, that England's closest cultural relative after the other countries of the British Isles would be the Netherlands. And it's no coincidence that its language, after Scots, is most related to those found in the Netherlands. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
And it's no coincidence that its language, after Scots, is most related to those found in the Netherlands
I'm glad to see that you recognise that there is a link between language and culture in larger meaning.
But not as much as you would like to think. Under your line of reasoning, Jamaica and England have more in common because they both share an "Anglo-Saxon" or "English-speaking" culture. But in reality, England's culture is much more like Dutch culture than Jamaican culture. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I think that it is relevant to make the point here that there is no single 'English' culture as such. Many different cultures can exist in one country. So, culture in Brixton shares a lot with Jamaica, whilst Norfolk would not be very similar to Jamaica, but would be quite similar to Friesland.
Actually, if you ask people from England what comes to mind when they thing of 'English culture', they'd probably think of quite a rural image — small villages with greens, windy lanes, summer fêtes, morris dancers, country pubs, little medieval churches, afternoon teas with scones, that sort of thing. But if you asked them what comes to mind when they think of 'British culture', then they'd probably have a much more 'multicultural' image with ethnic and religious diversity, modern cities... and would probably include some reference to curry.
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.
Uriel,
Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?
that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...
I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...
I guess to each their own. I thought the Netherlands were a lot more like Belgium. (Of course, I was in Flanders.)
Luxembourg struck me as being more like Germany. I've never been to Austria so I can't comment on that. France even seemed more like Germany (again, I was only in the northern part of France).
Of course, all of them shared the same dismal climate and the same unsmilingness of the population. I suppose that's a similarity. Someday I'll really have to check out southern Europe and report back!
Probably we are all focusing on different qualities that happen to strike us, not the same ones.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Quite honestly, I'm completely unfamiliar with the governments of most countries. There are only a handful of heads of state I could even name, much less pick out of a crowd. (It's a running joke that we never have any idea who's running Canada, for instance. Or -- you know -- care.) As for their political bents, I would be entirely at a loss. Most countries' political parties and systems are only vaguely comparable to each other's, anyway. So politics rarely colors my conception of other countries.
) which is quite different from the ambience of other European countries, like that of the Netherlands or Germany! And I know loads of people who actually think the same. I'm not only talking of landscapes and architecture but also of culture.