Well, some points of your proposed ideal church that I approve:
-Separation of Church and State (to formalise in name what has already happened in reality)
-A very liberal celebration of the Eucharist (as in that that the Eucharist is encouraged but it is still nonetheless a sacrament and that Transubstantiation is present)
-Veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints (why not?)
Benjamin:
I have to rephrase my statement. I do not feel a sense of solidarity with them although I acknowledge the commonalities which exist between us.
Oh, I'd be obliged if you could explain to me the difference between Baptists and Methodists, or between any Protestant denomination for that matter. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I have to rephrase my statement. I do not feel a sense of solidarity with them although I acknowledge the commonalities which exist between us.
Oh, I see. As a Unitarian, I personally do feel a sense of solidarity with Quakers, but that's probably the difference between people who are part of very small religious groups and people who are part of the largest religious organisation in the world.
loic wrote:
Oh, I'd be obliged if you could explain to me the difference between Baptists and Methodists, or between any Protestant denomination for that matter.
Firstly, I think that the most important thing to understand about the notion of a 'Protestant' church is that it refers to those denominations with historical roots in the Reformation. It makes no specific comment about the beliefs and practice. Unfortunately, this misunderstanding has often led to the naïve assumption, especially from people in predominately Roman Catholic societies, that the pseudo-Catholic Church of England, the puritantical and fundamentalist Southern Baptist Convention and the über-liberal Unitarians are all essentially the same thing, or at least that they are more similar to each-other than any are to the Roman Catholic Church. That view is, in my opinion, totally flawed.
Secondly, it is important to realise that just because denominations may be called 'Methodist' in, say, Britain and the United States (or wherever), they will usually be run independently from each-other. That's to say that there may be very significant differences between them.
Finally, may denominations give quite a lot of freedom to individual congregations. This means that it may not always be easy to comment on what a particular denomination is 'generally' like.
Okay then... Methodists can largely be traced back to John and Charles Wesley in England in the 18th century. He didn't originally intend to found his own denomination, but wished instead to promote their ideas within the Church of England, which included Christian teachings which could be understood by people of all levels of education, and the idea of a personal relationship with God. Essentially, at least in England, they tend to be very similar to Low Anglicans. Many Methodist churches in England could be described as quite liberal, although I think that they tend to be more conservative (or even fundamentalist in some cases) in the US.
Baptists have earlier origins, and have tended to place all authority on (their interpretation of) the Bible, rejecting any use of icons. Whilst many Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Anglican Christians would regard the Bible as 'the book of the people', Baptists would perhaps be more inclined to see themselves as 'the people of the book'. They believe in 'believers baptism', in which people deemed old enough to be able to know for themselves wether or not they 'accept Christ' are immersed in water. This act is seen as symbolic only. Likewise, the 'Eucharist' (Baptists tend to use 'Communion' instead) is celebrated, but is seen as only symbolic of the last supper -- they do not accept transubstantiation, consubstantiation or even the spiritual prescence of Christ in the bread and wine. Equally, the wine, which is alcohol free, is usally distributed in individual glasses, rather than from one cup. The bread and wine is not 'blessed' as such. Baptists in the US seem to have a reputation for being rather fundamentalist. They don't have this reputation in the UK, rather they are seen as the people who sing very joyful hymns, but this may be because they are numerically insignificant.
loic:
When you mentioned Transubstantiation I had to look up the Eucharist stuff on Wikipedia, as I had very little idea about it. It looks like that my official position should be the Lutheran in, with, and under the forms doctrine, but personally I find the Orthodox doctrine about true sacrifice and objective presence but pious silence on the particulars most appropriate.
The kind of Eucharistic adoration or worship that you can find within Catholicism just strikes me as odd, so I guess I am not much of a transubstantiationalist!
Benjamin:
Very interesting explanation! When you mentioned the Baptists, I remembered that there is one Protestant sect whose name sounds more mystical and temptingly heretical to me than any Opus Dei or Priory of Sion: The Anabaptists, Wiedertäufer or gjendøperne....
Benjamin: Do you know anything about the altar-call among the Baptists? Have you attended a Baptist service? What do you think are the tangible differences between say, a Baptist service and a Unitarian one?
Frederik: To tell you the truth, I once secretly thought transubstantiation to be a little dodgy too. But you have to accept the miracle of the sacrament and that Jesus is physically present during holy communion. I am given to understand that non Roman Catholics see the Eucharist as a symbolic representation of the Last Supper but I assure you that it is far more potent than a mere symbol.
This is why women are not allowed to be ordained as priests.
PS: I wonder if everyone here realises that according to the OED, catholic with a small c means universal. The Roman Catholic church is, as the name implies, the true universal church. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
How many catholics are there near the place where you live?
Something about your community, parish, priests, bishops?
How many people attend the Holy Mass?
How are you perceived by others (Buddhists?Muslims?atheists?)?
Do you observe any convertions?
Are you a "natural born Catholic" or did you convert at a certain moment?
It's still unusual to find Roman Catholics in Asia, and Singapore is not an exception - all Christians constitute 14%, according to Wikipedia. That's why I'm asking these questions. We know very little about them. We know very little about you.
Benjamin: Do you know anything about the altar-call among the Baptists?
All I know is that it would be quite normal after a baptism in a Baptist church for the pastor to call for individuals to declare publicly their faith in Jesus Christ, especially those who had undergone a conversion experience during the service. They may be asked to come out to the front, or to simply stand up or raise their hand.
Quote:
Have you attended a Baptist service?
Unfortunately not. What do you think are the tangible differences between say, a Baptist service and a Unitarian one?
Unfortunately, I have not attended a Baptist service. However, here are my (reasonably informed) assumptions for what the differences might generally be:
Baptists would sing lively hymns praising Jesus/God, whilst Unitarians would sing quieter hymns which might not always be explicitly Christian.
Baptists would take the readings entirely from the Bible and would be viewed as the Word of God, whilst Unitarians would take readings from the Bible and many other sources, none of which would necessarily be viewed as inerrant.
Baptist sermons would give specific theological and ethical teachings, whilst Unitarian sermons would encourage questioning.
Baptist services may often be lively or even charismatic, whilst Unitarian services would be a much quieter affair with much time for silent meditation.
I'd actually be able to give a better informed assessment of the difference between Unitarian, Methodist and Anglican services. My grandparents are Methodists, my mother was brought up as a Methodist and I've attended Methodist services a number of times. Likewise, my dad was raised Anglican and I've attended a lot of Anglican services as it's the main church where I live. I've also attended Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Congregationalist services, and I'm reasonably well acquainted with Quaker meetings, so I could probably give a better informed summary of those than for the Baptists as well.
Quote:
I am given to understand that non Roman Catholics see the Eucharist as a symbolic representation of the Last Supper but I assure you that it is far more potent than a mere symbol.
Anglicans officially believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. However, a certain degree of freedom is given to the individual Anglicans as to how they understand this — beliefs officially range from transubstantiation to the belief in the spiritual presence only.
Likewise, Lutherans officially (I think) believe in consubstantiation, in which the bread and wine is both physically bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ.
Quote:
PS: I wonder if everyone here realises that according to the OED, catholic with a small c means universal. The Roman Catholic church is, as the name implies, the true universal church.
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