I would agree; that's why I always think of the ex-colonial areas as sort of "post-European", in that the people are predominately of European descent, the dominant culture is heavily European in tradition, and you can look at them as really far-flung satellite regions of Europe, albeit with indigenous influences. I imagine to outsiders (non-Westerners, I suppose) the dynamic between EU and the US looks mainly like a family squabble.
Yes. Equally, from my so-called 'far-left' (or Green, as I'd prefer to call it) viewpoint, the differences between the EU and the US are very slight in many ways. Both are highly consumerist societies and are operating in an unsustainable fashion which is destroying the environment, both are very much focussed on 'economic growth', and both have consistently failed to reject violence by participating in wars and creating nuclear weapons. I do find it amusing when some Europeans go down the 'America is bad, Europe is good' route (as I myself probably have in the past). Sorry folks, but no — it's all sh*t, basically.
I would agree; that's why I always think of the ex-colonial areas as sort of "post-European", in that the people are predominately of European descent, the dominant culture is heavily European in tradition, and you can look at them as really far-flung satellite regions of Europe, albeit with indigenous influences. I imagine to outsiders (non-Westerners, I suppose) the dynamic between EU and the US looks mainly like a family squabble. And from that perspective, considering Russia some how fundamentally different from Europe makes little sense, which is why I was curious to see what it' like from other perspectives.
In that way I agree. If you think Europe in its wider meaning, including all predominantly of christian herency, indo-European languages and "white" populations as being "European then I would of course include Russia in it withoout hesitation.
But "European" is now more and more associated with European union, to which politically Russia is clearly in a very opposite position.
concerning the question of 'white' it is interesting to realize that in Moscow a lot of Russian people are not what is usually called "white" by many. you can see many people completly with mongoid features and others who seem mixed, of also somehow middle eastern or central Asian looks. you just have to look at a map of Russia to realize that it is difficult fot it to be populated with just pure "whites"...
But "European" is now more and more associated with European union, to which politically Russia is clearly in a very opposite position.
I don't really conflate 'European' with the European Union, because a number very obviously 'European' countries are not members. Or are you actually saying that you view Switzerland as 'less European' than, say, France?
Actually, I always think it's weird when people say things like 'Poland joined Europe in 2004', when it was there already.
fab wrote:
concerning the question of 'white' it is interesting to realize that in Moscow a lot of Russian people are not what is usually called "white" by many. you can see many people completly with mongoid features and others who seem mixed, of also somehow middle eastern or central Asian looks.
You could say the same about Paris or London (etc.). Actually, I noticed that when I was in America earlier this year, some people were surprised when I told them that many British people are not 'white'. I remember going shopping one evening with two girls that my friend knew, and they 'warned' me that there would be a lot of black people at the shopping centre — they said they thought that I might not be used to being around 'non-white' people.
I don't really conflate 'European' with the European Union, because a number very obviously 'European' countries are not members. Or are you actually saying that you view Switzerland as 'less European' than, say, France?
I think that nowadays "Europe", in current speach has two different meanings, depending of the context. One meaning means "European Union" and the other means "from the geographical area called Europe". In the first meaning Switzerland is not in Europe, in the second of course it is. I agree that the original meaning is the second one only, but, as you noticed it is usually said such things has "Europe has decided this" " Poland entred Europe", etc. which is obviously understood as meaning "European union"...
The word "American" has also two meanings. One meaning "from United States of America" and the second "from the Americas". depending of the context we understand which meaning is made.
[/quote]You could say the same about Paris or London (etc.). [/quote]
Yes, but also from Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Marseille or Berlin.
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Actually, I noticed that when I was in America earlier this year, some people were surprised when I told them that many British people are not 'white'. I remember going shopping one evening with two girls that my friend knew, and they 'warned' me that there would be a lot of black people at the shopping centre — they said they thought that I might not be used to being around 'non-white' people
That very true, many American tend to think that their country is the only one made with different populations. I discovered it is the way they seem to have been raised with the idea of "melting pot" and such things. They often forget that many countries are also "multiracial" and some of them are much more than the US themselves, such as Brazil and most latin American countries - where "pure whites" are minoritary, as well as other "etnies". most people being more or less mixed.
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Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject:
fab wrote:
That very true, many American tend to think that their country is the only one made with different populations. I discovered it is the way they seem to have been raised with the idea of "melting pot" and such things. They often forget that many countries are also "multiracial"...
I think that's so true. Growing up (and still to this day), all I kept hearing from teachers, politicians, and the media is how America (US) is a great big melting pot of cultures, races, and ethnicities, etc., while the images we get from the UK or any of the Germanic countries are white, pasty faces. So naturally, we get this impression that the US is the most multiracial country on the planet. And forget about the countries to our South! Many Anglos I've encountered seem to think all us Central and South Americans make up on big happy Hispanic/Latino "race".
The problem is that it is the capital of a country that is at about 80% situated in Asia.
When you are from western continental Europe and you go there you have definitly the felling of being in a very different place - the recent economical regime makes it having a lot of common points with the other big communist countries such as China.
Personally when I was in Moscow I had the feeling of both being in Europe and being in other continent.
So it sounds like you have the sense of Moscow being a sort of transitional zone between Europe and points east. Andf the economic disparity only heightens the sense of differnece. Do you think it would be different if it were more prosperous and stable? More "European", more familiar? Or are there fundamental non-European influences that would color it anyway? (Although, as a French person who feels a strong sense of familiarity with North African influences, that may not be an issue!)
It's true that Russia can be regarded as much "peripheral" to Western Europe as Northern Africa, from a French viewpoint at least. And Asian Russia only more so.
Concerning Russia, we shouldn't forget that it is geographically closer to China than to most Ewestern European nation - It is also closer to the united States (only 80km separate both sides of Bering strait)...
We remember how close Russia is to us -- it sold us Alaska, after all. And I believe some of the earlier European explorers of California were Russian.
Russian Orthodox church in Alaska
Regarding white people in Europe, for the record, outside of Paris and London and US bases, most of the people I saw in Europe were pretty white. Of course, you can go to certain parts of the US and see nothing but white bread wherever you look -- as in Europe, it just depends on where you live. _________________ An apple a day....
That's certainly true — about 98% of people in Scotland are 'white', and outwith Edinburgh and Glasgow it's even higher than that. But even though skin-colour is largely irrelevant here, Scotland is still amongst the most violent places in Western Europe — we find other differences and divisions within our society to emphasise and use as excuses to hate each-other, form rival gangs and attack each-other. (I use 'we' in the loosest sense, of course; I do not personally engage in violent behaviour).
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:
Uriel wrote:
And I believe some of the earlier European explorers of California were Russian.
Not just explorers, but settlers.
The Russians built Fort Ross (“Ross” comes from “Rossiya”, which is the Russian word for Russia) in 1812. It’s 90 miles
(145 km) north of San Francisco, which is a 2-hour drive if you take a major freeway for most of the drive. If you take
the narrow, winding coast highway for the entire distance, it's slower, but much more beautiful.
Some of the photos in the first linked website show Fort Ross in the fog, which is how it is for much of the summer.
(Actually, the photo I posted also shows it in the fog, but not a thick fog. The fog and the brown hill indicate
that this was taken in the summer. If everything looks green, that means it's winter or early spring.)
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:59 am Post subject:
Isn't that somewhere along the banks of the Russian River? I once spent a weekend up at the River with some girlfriends and gay male friends, and unbeknownst to us it turned out to be lesbian pride weekend and the lesbianas were out in force, romping around naked as a jaybird. And let me tell ya, many of the girls weren't neatly landscaped.
But I digress. It was a lovely place, nonetheless.
OK, i ve missed a lot, being too busy and haven't met you in Moscow LOL As it's my country and my native city, let me say something ;)
fab wrote:
Quite a strange feeling that is reinforced by huge cars, huge streets, almost no pedestrians, no scooters or bikes in the streets..
well, i guess you haven't been to Moscow metro or Moscow traffic jam, it's where all wise people hide during bad weather LOL I mean Moscow is the biggest European city with total population... God only knows, in work hours it can be about 15 million or alike. So no pedestrians? Are you kidding or what?
In Russia only few people use scooters, and only outside of big cities, but bikers still rock
Bikes! We dont use bikes as well, what for? Especially in a town where 9 months a year we have winter and you reach your place of work in 2-3 hours of driving or being pulled underground or in bus etc. Russia is a country with big distances you know.
Quote:
Very huge adverts for international companies... Or for Putin's party (only for his party.) - I saw one near the red place which was about 100 meters wide and 25 meter high !!
Putin, Evil Putin, again, so what? leave us alone and let just peacefully love our great leader LOOOOLLL
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And policemen with Sovietic-style hats whatching quite attentively the people, especially those who don't look like Russian.
i bet you are not Russian if you noticed this, I go and feel free LOL
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I was quite surprised to see that many of the symbols of the sovietic times are still in place: Lenin or Stalin's statues, communist red stars... and the most impressive landmarks of the city which are the "stalinian skyscrappers"
why were you surprised? I think it's all very logical... Red star isn't communist any more, it's official symbol of our army, why is it bad? Stalin architecture is great, Moscow State University, Mininistry of foreiggn affairs, are situated there. I think you didn't have any excursions around the city.
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Only the very city center, around the red place and Kremlin are reletively touristic, relatively old and pedestrian - a sort of "vitrine" of the eternal Russia, with its golden domes and a very chic commercial fashion center just alongside Lenin's tomb.
you haven't seen Moscow, all the best things are out of the center, but of course you need come in summer coz it's nothing to do there now. But I see according to your pics you were in VDNKh, the biggest expo center, it has very beautiful buildings (in Iranian style for example, great fountains etc.), but you seem to be very concentrated on Lenin and stars and haven't noticed anything else.
From this I realize that you didn't like Moscow, but it's OK, I also didn't like Paris _________________
it is about a country in which the population is still quite poor for most of it (it is especially true outside the city center, and outside Moscow urban area the feel is more is more "third world".
where have you been? I think it was not Russia...When you go outside you see.... God, you can see for example 8th most expensive villa in the world or other town houses for ultra rich people and they are all around Moscow, If you don't know, try to check prices for a flat in this "third world", I bet you don't have so much money, Moscow is the most expensive city in Europe and I assure you, level of life here is one which can be envied, you have quite superficial impressions. Probably Soviet-style blocks don't look very appealing, but flats in Moscow center (by the way I wonder what do you call "Moscow center", Moscow center is as big as whole Paris, where have you been excatly?) are very good, especially in Stalin houses, yup, I'd like to have such.
Quote:
what is I felt quite new in Russia during the few years of Putin's reign is a valorisation of the soviet times, not in the economic field, but in the national, political, military ones, etc
wow, you felt. can you tell in details? it sounds just funny, coz nothing like this happens, if you call all patriotic things in Russia Soviet, then may be you are right.
Quote:
Even today most of the city is made of building of Kroutchev period - those blocks were preconstrudted and uniformized.
You haven't seen any building from Khrushchev period, Moscow government knocks them down and all of them are situated in "living areas", you saw quite modern buildings (i can tell according to the pictures), built in 70s, 80s or so. As for "preconstructed" I have no idea. _________________
I did not made judgements, but just personal feelings about the things that had more impact on me.
I didn't say "this" or "that" is a good or bad thing... just speak about what I noticed, in a very superficial way during a much too short trip for being able to say that I know the Russia that you know.
Let me explain if you misunderstood me
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well, i guess you haven't been to Moscow metro or Moscow traffic jam, it's where all wise people hide during bad weather LOL I mean Moscow is the biggest European city with total population... God only knows, in work hours it can be about 15 million or alike. So no pedestrians? Are you kidding or what?
I of course agree and I am aware that Moscow is a very huge city - And that many things (that I'm not used of in France) it implies had great impact on me; as the size of the streets, which are much larger than the ones we have in Paris. The feeling I had about that is that, due to the size of the streets I felt much more the presence of cars than of pedestrians in comparision of what I experience in Paris- one again it is not a critic, just an observation. I was really impressed by the number of car, and especially big or luxury cars, limousines or 4x4, etc. to wich I am unused to see in paris at the same level.
Quote:
In Russia only few people use scooters, and only outside of big cities, but bikers still rock
Bikes! We dont use bikes as well, what for? Especially in a town where 9 months a year we have winter and you reach your place of work in 2-3 hours of driving or being pulled underground or in bus etc. Russia is a country with big distances you know.
Actually, I lived in Montreal where a lot of people use bikes in the streets, where it is winter with -30°C... and which is also a country with big distances. I also saw really a lot of them in Stokholm where the winters are quite hard too, but not noticed as much in Moscow even if I of course know that bikes exist there!. ;)
Quote:
Putin, Evil Putin, again, so what? leave us alone and let just peacefully love our great leader LOOOOLLL
I don't know if Putin is that "evil", I was just quite shoked to see that such a huge advert can be made for an election - that was quite unusual for me, even Sarkozy's France (who is quite a mediatic megalomaniac!).
Quote:
bet you are not Russian if you noticed this, I go and feel free LOL
I don't know, yes probably. What I noticed was the "impressive" look of these policemen from my point of view, due to the way they are dressed, etc. That was not a problem, just an observation.
Quote:
why were you surprised? I think it's all very logical... Red star isn't communist any more, it's official symbol of our army, why is it bad? Stalin architecture is great, Moscow State University, Mininistry of foreiggn affairs, are situated there. I think you didn't have any excursions around the city.
I said seing the red star was bad? I thing you interpreted that...
we saw so many pictures of Lenin or Stalin statues being brought down that it is interesting to realize that it is not at all the case. I agree with you with the great quality of many of Stalinian constructions, habitations, stalinian skyscrappers, especially the Moscow state university building which impressed me very much.
Quote:
you haven't seen Moscow, all the best things are out of the center, but of course you need come in summer coz it's nothing to do there now. But I see according to your pics you were in VDNKh, the biggest expo center, it has very beautiful buildings (in Iranian style for example, great fountains etc.), but you seem to be very concentrated on Lenin and stars and haven't noticed anything else.
I agree that a two day trip is much much too short to be able to say that we know a city. I would have seen many more things if I stayed more time. Yes, we have been to the expo center, which has many interesting buildings (I didn't post all my photos). but, as a westerner, taking a picture of a communist symbol is a sort of souvernir of our mental symbol of the country... the same way a tourist in Paris would take a picture of the eiffel tower, of the napolenonian symbols (arc the triomphe)... which are not necessary the most interesting things in Paris in the absolute.
Quote:
From this I realize that you didn't like Moscow, but it's OK, I also didn't like Paris
Thanks for the answer Actually I was a bit ironic and joked about Paris. I liked though I was only 1 day there, but after Moscow it looks very little, yeah, tiny place with tiny streets, actually it can be said about any other place except for Kiev, which was also designed in a soviet big style.
As for bikes, i think it's not part of culture or better it's not our way of life... Chief Executives would never change their Lexus/BMW/Infinity/Range Rover/Maibach/Bentley for a bike. and I'll never change metro for it haha.
Quote:
What I noticed was the "impressive" look of these policemen from my point of view
I would never think about them in such a way, actually i dont think that anyone pays attention to them, they are not "impressive", i would call them "miserable"
And one more point - if you see some "mongoloid" people in Moscow, you should know that they are NOT Russians, they are illegal immigrants from ex-soviet republics, they are nobody here, doing the hardest and the cheapest work. Russians are only white people, well with little exception of course, but generally they are white. _________________
And one more point - if you see some "mongoloid" people in Moscow, you should know that they are NOT Russians, they are illegal immigrants from ex-soviet republics,
Wanderin,
Are all of them illegal immigrants? I thought there had been people who moved from, say, Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, and just settled in Russia during the Soviet Union era.
And one more point - if you see some "mongoloid" people in Moscow, you should know that they are NOT Russians, they are illegal immigrants from ex-soviet republics,
Wanderin,
Are all of them illegal immigrants? I thought there had been people who moved from, say, Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, and just settled in Russia during the Soviet Union era.
Nope, during Soviet era, people didnt move around, it was quite difficult and simply useless, unless you are a military guy or from KGB. They could move if communist party ordered them to do this, for example to build Baikal railway, to build new factory, but Soviet system used prisoners for this kind of work so... I even can't imagin them to move in central Russia for example.
Now Central Asian republics excluding Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan (the last one is a closed state, citizens aren't allowed to leave the country) are absolutely poor and it's like all the rest people go in Russia...
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