Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: How many languages do you speak?
This would sound like a topic without head nor tails, but I am curious as to the linguistic capability of people here. It seems that almost everyone here has a solid grounding in a second language, but does the extent of language acquisition stop here? Tell me about it. When did you first start to speak a second language? How did you learn it and would you rate your secondary languages to be (almost) as good as your mother tongue?
This is not about showing off, but about sharing. I hope nobody misunderstands me on this point. Since this is an exercise in statistics, I'd hereby averr that the results of the survey are empirical, anecdotal and definitely not actionable! _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Since I started this thread, it'd only be fair to start the ball rolling as well. As the old-timers here are already aware, my principal second language is Chinese but it is debatable as to how often I use it nowadays. This is not due to a paucity of opportunities to speak and use the language in its living form. Far from it! I'd say that most people in my school hold casual conversations in Chinese, but since I do not hang out with such a crowd, I restrict myself to a largely monolinggual and superficially anglicised environment.
It's mandatory to learn a second language here for at least ten years and I paid my dues. I learnt French for 5 years and I think my grounding in it actually solidified after leaving formal education: I subscribe to French channel (TV5 Monde) at home and although the majority of their programmes are dreadfully dull, there are a few which make a blip on my radar: Fort Boyard, Questions pour un Champion, La Cible, etc.
As for my understanding of Malay, it's basically a bastardised creole - an offspring of long centuries of liaison between the Chinese traders and the Malay women of the region and which later blossomed as the language of the marketplace in its heyday before the arrival of the English language. Called Pasar Melayu or market Malay, it is mainly spoken by an ageing generation of Straits Chinese and I predict its extinction after the demise of the older generation.
Here's an example of the differences between the two varieties:
Pasar Melayu:
Gua suka lu (I love you)
v.
Bahasa Melayu Tinggi (Standard Malay):
Aku cinta kau.
So here's my story. What's yours? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I've been learning French for over seven years now, although one could argue that the first four years of that were wasted. I was originally taught the 'communication' method, where every lesson we learnt questions which a French-speaking person might (but probably wouldn't) ask us, and then we practiced speaking and writing model answers, without really learning any grammar. I suppose that this made it more enjoyable for people who might not ordinarily have been so interested, but I believe that it probably wasn't so beneficial for me. Put it this way — I didn't know how to conjugate even avoir and être in all persons, nor did I know the possessive adjectives for nous, vous, ils and elles until after I'd been studying French for over four years, when I decided to look for myself on the internet.
Generally, I'd say that I'm reasonably fluent in French. I can read it almost as fast as I read English, and I can write about more or less anything in it (although I've no idea how natural my written French actually sounds). I find that I can often speak reasonably well about more complicated things, but often find every-day informal chatting more difficult.
I also studied Spanish for four years, although the first two of those years at school were wasted. For the following two years, I went to evening classes due to time-tabling problems at school. It's over a year now since I last studied it formally, so I tend to find that my knowledge of Spanish is largely passive. So, if someone posts something on Antimoon in Spanish, I can read it without much difficulty, but I find that posting in Spanish is slow and awkward.
I only really started learning German this year when I went to do an intensive language course in Germany for two weeks in the summer. My knowledge of German however is largely oral. I find that I can follow what people say possibly almost as well as in French, and that basic conversation feels very 'natural', but I wouldn't be able to produce anything too complicated in it myself. I'm not very confident in writing German at all, and my reading ability in it is almost non-existent (without saying it out-loud).
I've also learnt bits of Esperanto and Afrikaans, of which I can produce in basic forms when necessary.
I grew up bilingually: British Sign Language and English. I express myself better in BSL even though I use English much more frequently unless I am with my Deaf friends. Obviously, BSL has no written form, I use English much more often (as I read a lot)!
Then there's French which is my third language. My French is still conversational but I'm working on becoming fluent in it!
I'm also learning Malay, Filipino, Japanese and German.
My second language would be English. We start learning English in fourth grade here and I guess I could make myself understood fairly well when I was in Junior High. But I never really got in touch with spoken English until after High School when I'd moved to Uppsala and started meeting foreign exchange students. There I realized how much harder it was, or is, to get through a real life conversation in English, than I had thought it was. Speaking English with people from many different countries was rewarding in many ways. For example, I learned new words, many of which are everyday words. I still remember...
Mark, the Canadian: Could you hand me the strainer?
Walker, the Swede: The what?
I haven't spoken English for some time now, though. I'm fully aware that I still have a long way to go to be really fluent in English and there are still lots and lots of words I need to learn. But if I'd name a second language it'd be English. Not Norwegian or Danish. That's because I don't speak those languages. I understand them in written form and also in spoken form, to a greater or lesser extent. But I can't say that I speak Norwegian or Danish. But then again, I've never really tried.
In school I also studied German, Spanish and Italian. The last two I "studied" - I never liked those classes and I didn't take them too seriously. I just made sure I passed and that was that. Actually, it was the same with German. However, German was the only of those three languages that stuck somewhat, even though I took German in Junior High School and the other two in High School. Of course, there are many similarities between German and Swedish. I don't remember much of the der, die, das, dem, den etc, though. But my friend's Austrian girlfriend constantly tells me to take up German again. Apparently my pronounciation is good. So if I do take up German again and then move to Germany, who knows, maybe in a few years time I'll have another secondary language going! :wink:
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:20 am Post subject:
Benjamin wrote:
Quote:
Mark, the Canadian: Could you hand me the strainer?
Walker, the Swede: The what?
And what is a strainer? Is it like a tea strainer, or what?
It could be a tea strainer, or it could be a larger strainer, used to strain...whatever you want. Some people might call a colander a strainer. The main difference between the two seems to be that a colander has holes punched in a solid piece of metal or some other material, while a strainer tends to be wire mesh, so a strainer has more hole space than a colander.
I voted for English being my second language although I’m aware of how much it needs to be improved, especially in relation to speaking and understanding of spoken English. However, I’m sure English is my strongest point as regards non-native languages. I’m glad I can still practice it by meeting native and non-native English speakers fairly often, watching TV channels, reading books, movie scripts, magazines and visiting the internet. It’s useful, no, it’s necessary at work and this is what motivates me the most.
I’ve been studying French for some 7 years in total but most of this time has been wasted since I’m not fluent beyond the basic usage. I lack motivation. I like the language but have no opportunity to use it. I meet francophones occasionally but I feel too weak to practice my French and they are usually willing to practice their English so after ça va bien ? etc. we end up speaking English. Like Loic, I’ve got TV5 Monde channel but also find most of the programmes dull and discouraging. Sometimes I read books written in simple French, magazines etc. but I feel that learning just for the sake of learning is not what I really like.
I took up Russian at primary school. I had no choice - it was the only obligatory foreign language. I didn’t pay much attention to it partly because it was compulsory and partly because I was too young to properly understand the importance of foreign languages. Of course I’m able to ask basic stuff but more by the fact of similarities between Polish and Russian than my actual knowledge.
but I feel that learning just for the sake of learning is not what I really like.
Yes, I feel the same way. I would love to know another foreign langauge, but I don't know enough people who speak a foreign language to be motivated to learn a foreign language. I see no point in learning a new language only for the sake of learning it. In fact, I'm not sure if I even could do it if I didn't have anyone to talk to.
Deborah, what motivates you to learn Spanish? Do you have Spanish speaking friends?
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject:
Walker wrote:
I see no point in learning a new language only for the sake of learning it.
I enjoy studying languages just for the sake of learning about them, but that only gets me so far. As soon as I have a good understanding of the grammar and pronunciation and can speak a little, I tend to lose interest. When I studied Russian, I had more incentive to learn, since I made several trips to Russia. But once I stopped going there, I stopped studying.
Walker wrote:
Deborah, what motivates you to learn Spanish? Do you have Spanish speaking friends?
I decided to study Spanish because I had some idea of teaching ESL (adult education only), and many of the job listings I saw when I was working toward my teaching certificate required bilingual (English/Spanish) teachers. But even if I don't ever finish the written assignments required to complete my certification, I think I'll continue to study Spanish because I enjoy the classes and the company, and because there are plenty of opportunities to speak Spanish in San Francisco.
Last night I had my longest conversation in Spanish to date. We had a substitute teacher who, it turns out, lives a couple of blocks from me, so we took the bus together. Our conversation went much better than those I've had with non-teachers, since he spoke clearly and was very patient during my occasional struggles to find a way to express myself. I'm always starting a sentence, then realizing that I don't have the vocabulary to finish the sentence the way I'd intended, so I have to start over another way. Sometimes I'll do that 3 or 4 times before I figure a way around my inadequacies!
I enjoy studying languages just for the sake of learning about them, but that only gets me so far. As soon as I have a good understanding of the grammar and pronunciation and can speak a little, I tend to lose interest. When I studied Russian, I had more incentive to learn, since I made several trips to Russia. But once I stopped going there, I stopped studying.
That's just it. Although I might not have gone that far myself, I mean I've just checked out this and that language a tiny bit. But as soon as I realize that I don't know anyone that speaks this or that language my interest generally fades away - or as I like think - goes into a sort of hibernation.
Deborah wrote:
I decided to study Spanish because I had some idea of teaching ESL (adult education only), and many of the job listings I saw when I was working toward my teaching certificate required bilingual (English/Spanish) teachers. But even if I don't ever finish the written assignments required to complete my certification, I think I'll continue to study Spanish because I enjoy the classes and the company, and because there are plenty of opportunities to speak Spanish in San Francisco.
Yeah, that's some idea, alright! Go for it! We know you've "come to loath" your job, so I think it seems like a wonderful idea to become a teacher since it seems like something you want to do.
Deborah wrote:
Last night I had my longest conversation in Spanish to date. We had a substitute teacher who, it turns out, lives a couple of blocks from me, so we took the bus together. Our conversation went much better than those I've had with non-teachers, since he spoke clearly and was very patient during my occasional struggles to find a way to express myself.
That's good!
Deborah wrote:
I'm always starting a sentence, then realizing that I don't have the vocabulary to finish the sentence the way I'd intended, so I have to start over another way. Sometimes I'll do that 3 or 4 times before I figure a way around my inadequacies!
Tell me about it! You know just what you want to say but you can't find the word/s, or you simply don't know them. Sometimes I've felt like a child when I have tried to say something, having to take lots of detours to get my point through.
I can't study a language for its own sake: that's like studying for the sake of studying and nothing is more off putting than that.
Benjamin: You spent the 1st four years learning French without an awareness of basic conjugaison? My experiences laid on the other end with grammar taking centre-stage in virtually all my classes. By our 4th year, we were doing the simple past and every class was filled with dreadful memories of two long hours going to the blackboard and conjugating a given verb. Really! Life is too short for that.
Quote:
I'm also learning Malay, Filipino, Japanese and German.
Bagus! Kenapa mahu anda belajar Bahasa Melayu? Terrific! May I ask why you are learning Malay? I am just intringued, Daniel. It's a bit of a pleasure for me that someone from another side of the world is interested in Malay.
Walker: What's a strainer? It must have strained you when you realised you didn't know what it meant!
Lol. A weak (and bad) pun, I know. But I am rather lame sometimes.
KSA: I suppose practice always makes perfect in every situation. Frankly, I am a little surprised you took French instead of German. I'd always thought Poland is in the German sphere of influence - a significant part of its territory was gobbled up by Prussia and later incorporated into the second Reich. Doesn't it make you a bit of a rarity in school?
Personally, I think I am rather good in making informal conversations in French, but flounder when I have to write une dissertation or something as long as that. In speech, there are a handful of stock phrases which I use to death such as "ah bon?" or "putain de merde" or "pas de question", etc. I have no difficulties speaking French informally: my uncle is actually a tour guide and I sometimes help him when he has French speaking clients. However, most French tourists who need a guide are usually rather old and they are a little hard to understand at times: Pardon, Monsieur? Je vous ai pas compris! _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
In speech, there are a handful of stock phrases which I use to death such as "ah bon?" or "putain de merde" or "pas de question", etc.
:lol: It's so easy to swear in foreign languages because those words and phrases don't have the same meaning to you as they have when you say them in your native language. Well, that's kind of how it is for me anyway. When I first started speaking English "for real" the word "fuck" came out of my mouth pretty often. After a while, however, I realized that perhaps it wasn't that nice a word to say, even in informal speech I mean. But still, I would never say the Swedish word for "fuck" if there were other people around to hear me. I've heard some Spanish swearwords and they sound nothing but funny to me, but if a Swede met another Swede, especially one he didn't know very well, who spoke like they do in Central and South America, his ears would probably fold themselves up and crawl into his head. Maybe it's the relief that makes it fun to swear in another language. Saying "bad" words in English doesn't make me feel guilty because they're just words. It's not my language.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject:
Walker wrote:
When I first started speaking English "for real" the word "fuck" came out of my mouth pretty often. After a while, however, I realized that perhaps it wasn't that nice a word to say, even in informal speech I mean.
I've always thought it a bad idea to try to incorporate "bad" language when you're not a native speaker, as some people do. I suppose they're attempting to sound natural. Unfortunately, they often haven't picked up on the subtleties of when and with whom it's acceptable to do it. For example, a group of friends at an office might use certain language when they're in an enclosed room that they wouldn't think of using out in the open, even if they're among the same group of friends (because you never know who's around the corner).
I was in that exact situation at one law firm. A group of us were in a closed conference room, and "shit" and "fuck" and probably other words cropped up pretty frequently. Then we all came upstairs to the main floor, and while we were still standing around together, one of the legal assistants, who was Israeli and hadn't been living here all that long, said "fuck", and the rest of us just froze and stopped talking. She was quite confused by our reaction, understandably. Someone did explain it to her, though, so she never made that mistake again.
When I first started speaking English "for real" the word "fuck" came out of my mouth pretty often. After a while, however, I realized that perhaps it wasn't that nice a word to say, even in informal speech I mean.
I've always thought it a bad idea to try to incorporate "bad" language when you're not a native speaker, as some people do. I suppose they're attempting to sound natural. Unfortunately, they often haven't picked up on the subtleties of when and with whom it's acceptable to do it. For example, a group of friends at an office might use certain language when they're in an enclosed room that they wouldn't think of using out in the open, even if they're among the same group of friends (because you never know who's around the corner).
I was in that exact situation at one law firm. A group of us were in a closed conference room, and "shit" and "fuck" and probably other words cropped up pretty frequently. Then we all came upstairs to the main floor, and while we were still standing around together, one of the legal assistants, who was Israeli and hadn't been living here all that long, said "fuck", and the rest of us just froze and stopped talking. She was quite confused by our reaction, understandably. Someone did explain it to her, though, so she never made that mistake again.
A lot of non-native speakers of English probably have a distorded image because of films, TV and music where "bad" language is often heard. Attempting to sound natural is probably one reason why some of them use "bad" language, I'd agree.
Something similar to what happened to you happened to me once. We had a party at our dorm and we had just sat down and started eating, when a Swedish-speaking German girl said what in English would be "that's fucking good!" about the food. Everybody went quiet for two seconds, but then someone was quick enough to make a joke out of it, by saying "that came straight from your heart, didn't it?", and everybody laughed. But of course, it's different with an office environment.
Wow - I just seem to blunder on this board. I thought the poll question asked what my primary language was, so of course I voted English.
I see now that it asks for primary second language which would have to be "other": Italian.
I grew up in Miami (some of you know this so you can stop reading now) where there is a high Cuban concentration and learned some Spanish before school. At six, I started formal Spanish training which was mostly wasted for the next twelve years because while I was always good at Spanish, most of my learning was done outside of the classroom (not that a formal teacher didn't help). After graduating high school, I was still only at a conversational level in Spanish.
In college I toyed with the idea of taking French, because I've always wanted to go to France (you know, the grass is greener on the other side, rose-tinted glasses thing). My major, however, did not allow me to do this for awhile, as I simply couldn't find a French class that wasn't in direct conflict with a required course for my major.
Fate stepped in my junior year of college - I met my then boyfriend now husband who was Italian. Not only had my schedule cleared as I had diligently taken all the requrements so I could have it easier later, but with our relationship becoming more and more serious, I decided Italian was the way to go. It was still another year before I could get into an Italian class, because it was a two semester course and I tried to register late, but wasn't allowed due to the class being full. So I took my one and only Italian class as a senior in college.
My experience with Italian was much different than with Spanish. It opened my eyes to my true love of language. I had always been good at languages (Spanish), but I had been missing an important factor before: motivation. The strange part of this was that it also improved my Spanish in a passive way, I guess since Italian is so close. I have no doubt that learning French will be easier because of it, but don't plan to start French till I have more Italian under my belt. I am mostly self-taught at this stage, but still motivated so progress is made!
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:31 am Post subject:
I really exaggerated by calling Spanish my second language, as I don't speak any language other than English well at all. But since I intend to continue with Spanish until I can consider it a second language, I decided to jump the gun. (But mainly, I couldn't see the voting results unless I voted.)
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