langcafe2.myfreeforum.org

Porthos · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Greater Impact - Norse vs. French

Old Norse and French both contributed a great deal to the development of English. They set English on a unique course of evolution, both exerting immense influence on the language. Which of the two languages had the greater impact on English? That's the question open to discussion.

Text example of French influence at my place of employment:
Do you have any *questions* or *comments* *regarding* the *recent* *merger/acquisition* of these *trivial* *companies*? We have *discussed* *comparing* the *charts* of each *respective* *company's* *financial* *statements*. *Suffice* to say with *absolute* *certainty* that the new *arrivals* will have a *positive* *influence* on *management* of this *particular* *mutual* *fund*, and no *doubt*, with the *contributions* of their newly *acquired* *assets* *arriving* from the main *office*, we shall *notice* *superior* *results*. It is my *personal* *opinion* that *investment* *returns* from this *security* will out-*perform* the *majority* of *alternative* *investment* *vehicles* in the *industry*. We can be *firmly* *confident* in our *expectations* as to the *performance* of this *fund*. Again, does anyone in the *audience* have any *issues* or *concerns* which need to be *addressed*? *Excellent*. Our *senior* *associate*, along with the *company* *president* are *en-route* to L.A. today, and I'm *confident* that we're all *eagerly* *anticipating* the *information* we're about to *recieve* from head*quarters* on our *insurance* *policy* and *additional* *employment* *benefits*. Let's give them a *cordial* *reception*.

List of French-origin words from the above list:
questions
comments
regarding
recent
merger
acquisition
trivial
companies
discussed
comparing
charts
respective
company
financial
statement
suffice
absolute
certainty
arrivals
positive
influence
management
particular
mutual
fund
doubt
contributions
acquired
assets
arriving
office
notice
superior
results
personal
opinion
investment
returns
security
perform
majority
alternative
investment
vehicles
industry
firmly
confident
expectations
performance
fund
audience
issues
concerns
addressed
excellent
senior
associate
company
president
en-route
confident
eagerly
anticipating
information
recieve
quarters
insurance
policy
additional
employment
benefits
cordial
reception
Total = 73 words

Native English words (Germanic)
Do
you
have
any
or
the
of
these
we
have
the
each
to
say
with
that
the
new
will
have
a
on
of
this
and
no
with
the
of
their
newly
from
the
main
we
shall
it
is
my
that
from
this
will
the
of
in
the
we
can
be
in
our
as
to
the
of
this
again
does
anyone
have
any
or
which
need
to
be
our
along
with
the
are
to
today
and
I'm
that
we're
all
the
we're
about
to
from
on
our
and
let's
give
them
a
Total = 93

..... Now in the above paragraph, there are a total of 166 words. 73 of the words are French in origin, while 93 are Germanic. Nearly all of the Germanic words are prepositions or articles, and they are nearly all two to three letter, small words. They're the basic words that every new English student first learns. The majority of them are the same words repeated multiple times in the paragraph, artificially adding to their importance it seems, such as "and", "the", "or", "in", etc. If we only included each word on a single contribution basis, we would find that there were actually fewer native English words than Romance ones. Without the Romance loan-words, we would not have been able to make a coherent paragraph. Obviously, French loan-words are an integral component of the English language.

Now, consider the influence of Old Norse. Unlike French, Norse contributed mainly, small, basic-everyday words, such as the following:
NOUNS:
anger
bag
bait
band
bark
birth
bull
dirt
egg
fellow
gap
husband
cake
kid
knife
law
leg
loan
race
root
sale
scrap
seat
sister
skill
skin
skirt
sky
slaughter
snare
steak
thrift
tidings
trust
window
wing
VERBS:
blend
call
cast
crawl
cut
die
get
give
hit
lift
raise
scare
scrape
seem
sprint
take
thrive
thrust
want
ADJECTIVES:
flat
happy
ill
like(ly)
loose
low
meek
odd
rotten
scant
sly
weak
wrong
AUXILIARY VERBS:
are
PREPOSITIONS:
till
fro
CONJUCTION:
though
tho
PERSONAL PRONOUNS:
they
their
them
PRONOMIAL ADJECTIVES:
both
same

So, such everyday simple sentences such as, "They are both weak, are comprised of nothing but purely Norse-derived words. Some of the very most common words we use in English, like plural pronouns, the auxiliary verb "are", and pronomial adjectives like "both" and "same" are of Norse origin. Some of our most common verbs such as get, want, hit, call, give, take etc, are also of Norse origin. Basic nouns like sky, sister, husband, knife, window, birth, anger, bag etc are of Norse origin. Without all of these words, English as we know it could not exist. Without them, we wouldn't be able to form simple sentences like, "They both took their seats (100% Norse vocab).

There's also some evidence to suggest that contact with Old Norse speakers among Anglo-Saxons produced a hybrid, creole-like language, with a simplified grammar, and altered syntax, that we now call English. If this, which is subject to debate, were true, then Norse might even have drastically changed our grammar and sentence structure as well!

So, the question remains. Which language had a greater impact on English? Old Norse or French? What's your opinion?
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Benjamin [inactive] · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject:

I don't know about you, but I find the text that you've quoted to be very formal, and thus contains a disproportionately high number of Franco-Latinate words. No-one I know actually speaks like that in real life though, but maybe it's different in California.

Porthos · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

Porthos · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:

Damn, that post took me forever to write. Now I'm late to work, and I have no time for breakfast!
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Porthos · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:04 am Post subject:

So, the question remains. Which language had a greater impact on English? Old Norse or French? What's your opinion?
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

David · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:11 am Post subject:

Norse actually only contribute about 20 words to the English language...

Andlit · Novice Joined: 27 Jun 2007 Posts: 7

akimbo, aloft, anger, are, askew, awe, awkward, bag, bait, ban, big, band, bang, bank (Of a river), bark (tree), bask, batten, bawl, berserk, billow, birth, blather, blend, bleak, bloat, bloom, blunder, blunt, bond (bondage), boon (n), booth, both, boulder, box (boxing), brunt, bulk, bustle, bylaw, calf, call, cake, carp (v), cart, cast, clumsy, clip, club, cog, cosy, cow(V), crash, crawl, crazy, creek, crooked, cuff(V), cut, dairy, dangle, dank, daze, dazzle, die, dirt, doze, drag, dregs, drip, droop, dump, eddy, egg, egg (v), fellow, fidget, flag (v), flat, flaw, fling, flit, flounce, fluster, fog, fro, froth, freckle, gab, gag, gap, gape, garth, gasp, gawk, gaze, gear, geld, get, gift, gill, girth, give, glitter, gosling, guess, guest, gun, gust, hap, happen, happy, harsh, hit, hunker, hurry, husband, hustings, ill, keg, kid, kidnap, kindle, knife, lad, lag, lambast, lathe, law, leg, lift, link, litmus, loan, loft, lofty, log, loom, loose, low, lug, lull, lump, mail (blackmail), meek, mire, mistake, mug, muggy, muck, murk, nab, nag (v), niggard, nudge, oaf, odd, outlaw, race (footrace), raft, rag, ragged, raise, ransack, reindeer, rid, rift, rig, rive, root, rotten, rug, rugged, rump, sag, saga, sale, same, scab, scale (weighing), scalp, scant, scare, scathe, scatter, scoff, scold, score, scowl, scour, scraggly, scrap, scrape, scrawny, scrimp, scud, scuff, scuffle, scrub, seat, seem, shriek, shrivel, sister, skewer, skid, skill, skin, skip, skirt, skull, skulk, sky, slaughter, sleuth, sleight, slight, sling (v), slump, sly, smile, snag, snare, snub, snug, spike, sprint, stack, stagger, stain, steak, swain, sway, tag, take, tang(y), tangle, tarn, tatter, teeter, tether, their, them, they, thrall, thrift, thrive, thrust, thwart, tight, till, tipple, toss, trust, ugly, un(gain)ly, until, upon, wand, want, weak, whir, whirl, whisk, whisker, wicker, window, wing, wrong, yule.

I'd say there's at least a couple of hundred words there. And thats just a sample of Norse words. [/quote]

Porthos · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject:

David · Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:47 am Post subject:

Andlit · Novice Joined: 27 Jun 2007 Posts: 7

Minimal in terms of numbers maybe, they don't exactly number in their thousands. But as you can see, they tend to be common everyday words so they are no less significant.

fab · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject:

I tend to think norse have more influence over english - maybe not in terms of number of words, but about the importance they have in the "heart language".

It is difficult for me to recognise words of norse origins compared with words of anglo-saxon origin, but I feel a lot of them still be in the basic vocabulary.

the french influence over english seem to me really overrated, maybe for "snobbish" reasons.