Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: Anglizismen in der deutschen Sprache
Weisst jemand, wann umgefähr die "Anglisierung" der deutsche Sprache begonnen hat? _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Ach man könnte sagen da ist ein ständiges Kommen und gehen. Im Moment sind Anglizismen in den Medien sehr präsent, ABER es gibt viele Studien, die belegen, dass ein Großteil der Bevölkerung die Anglizismen nicht oder falsch versteht.
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: Anglicisms in German
Not sure when the exact beginning of English loan words in German, but I would assume that a good deal of them have entered the language since 1945, which coincides both with the fall of the Third Reich to the Allies, and the essential beginning of the United States' status as an Empire. I have noticed while living in Germany that the youth are often more willing to use English words than a lot of the older people.
Well, living here for about one quarter of a century has left me with the impression: Young people are willingly adapting words from the english language but in large don't actually know the meaning of those words.
The media especially commercials are full of pseudo-english like Handy for a cell phone. Other words (cool for example) have entered the language in a kind of slang way that does not keep the original meaning ('kalt' in that case).
The influence of 1945 and later years really is minimal as with movements like The 68's there was a strong revival of cultural and linguistical identity in Germany. A real mass of loaning started in the late 90's when computers entered everyday life.
What's making it easier for english words to enter the language is the fact that English is short of always the first foreign language that pupils learn.
Is there any rule for pronouncing English loanwords in a German context?
I've been told in Germany that you are supposed to pronounce these words exactly the same way you would do in English. Once I was talking about Harry Potter and I pronounced his name in the German way. Not that I was trying hard to fit in - that came naturally within a German context. The others (Germans) burst out in laughter. I was absolutely flabbergasted at their reaction because to me it is natural to pronounce foreign names / loanwords according to the rules of the language I'm using at the moment. For example, I pronounce English words in the English way when speaking English, in a Hungarian way when speaking Hungarian etc. Of course, it doesn't mean that I would pronounce, say, "Microsoft Word" in exactly the same way it is written down. It's just that I pronounce "word" with a /v/ instead of a /w/ and I pronounce the "r" an alveolar trill instead an alveolar approximant (in a Hungarian context). _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
I was absolutely flabbergasted at their reaction because to me it is natural to pronounce foreign names / loanwords according to the rules of the language I'm using at the moment. For example, I pronounce English words in the English way when speaking English, in a Hungarian way when speaking Hungarian etc.
That's what I do as well.
Liz wrote:
Is there any rule for pronouncing English loanwords in a German context?
I've been told in Germany that you are supposed to pronounce these words exactly the same way you would do in English.
I've certainly noticed that native German speakers often (more or less) retain the original pronunciation of English and French loanwords. I remember being surprised when I was in Germany last year and heard people pronounce words such as Orange, Restaurant and Chance like in French, whereas in English you pronounce those words according to English rules (unless you're deliberately trying to sound extremely pretentious).
The other difficulty I have with the issue of loanwords in German would be that it's sometimes difficult to know from simply looking at a word whether it's popularly viewed as a 'loanword' or not. For example, there are a lot of words in English and to a lesser extent in German which are of French origin but are not generally viewed by most native speakers as 'loanwords' as such, whereas there are others which are.
As for English loanwords in German — I find that sometimes it's obvious when something's an English loanword, but other times its not, because there are so many words which are written the same in German as in English anyway. And then sometimes the spelling is modified somewhat, especially for verbs. For example, by looking at them, there's no real reason for why joggen and fucken couldn't be original German words, is there?
And then there are all those 'fake' English loanwords such as Handy, Beamer, Dressman, Twen, Funeralmaster, Funsport, Pullunder, Longseller, Sexdate, Songtext, Talkmaster, Highboard, and other eccentric terms which don't really exist in English.
I've certainly noticed that native German speakers often (more or less) retain the original pronunciation of English and French loanwords. I remember being surprised when I was in Germany last year and heard people pronounce words such as Orange, Restaurant and Chance like in French,
The three words you mentioned have been integral part of the German language for donkey's years (if I'm not mistaken), so their French-like pronounciation seem quite natural to me. Besides, they don't sound as out-of-place as Englihs loanwords (pronounced in the English way) do - probably because French pronounciation sounds closer to German in many ways than English is.
Benjamin wrote:
whereas in English you pronounce those words according to English rules (unless you're deliberately trying to sound extremely pretentious).
That's the same in Hungarian. If you pronounce English or French words exactly the same way you'd do in English or French, you'll definitely come across as extremely pretentious.
Benjamin wrote:
The other difficulty I have with the issue of loanwords in German would be that it's sometimes difficult to know from simply looking at a word whether it's popularly viewed as a 'loanword' or not. For example, there are a lot of words in English and to a lesser extent in German which are of French origin but are not generally viewed by most native speakers as 'loanwords' as such, whereas there are others which are.
I think the difference lies in the distinction of "loanwords" or simply "new foreign words". There are lots of loanwords that have been integral part of the language for such a long time that you might not treat them as such (as you said). But you usually don't know what to do with recently adopted foreignisms.
Benjamin wrote:
As for English loanwords in German — I find that sometimes it's obvious when something's an English loanword, but other times its not, because there are so many words which are written the same in German as in English anyway. And then sometimes the spelling is modified somewhat, especially for verbs. For example, by looking at them, there's no real reason for why joggen and fucken couldn't be original German words, is there?
They are pronounced in the English way + the -en ending is attached to it. English verbs are treated as if they were German verbs as far as syntax is concerned, but the English pronunciation is retained.
Benjamin wrote:
And then there are all those 'fake' English loanwords such as Handy, Beamer, Dressman, Twen, Funeralmaster, Funsport, Pullunder, Longseller, Sexdate, Songtext, Talkmaster, Highboard, and other eccentric terms which don't really exist in English.
Don't you just love them?
I wouldn't say I know what all of them means.
Benjamin wrote:
Deutsch ist aber fantastisch, oder?
Natürlich. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
And then there are all those 'fake' English loanwords such as Handy, Beamer, Dressman, Twen, Funeralmaster, Funsport, Pullunder, Longseller, Sexdate, Songtext, Talkmaster, Highboard, and other eccentric terms which don't really exist in English.
Don't you just love them?
There are loads of Germans in St Andrews — it's always amusing when they use some of those pseudo-anglicisms thinking that they're actual English words.
What does amaze me though is how one German girl I know seems to speak absolutely perfect English, even though she's only 18 and had never been in a natively English-speaking environment until two weeks ago. She's studying English Literature, French and Linguistics — and still seems to be better than most people here. I'm not sure that I'd have been able to cope so well if I'd gone to a French-speaking university, and I've been in natively French-speaking environments many times before.
There are loads of Germans in St Andrews — it's always amusing when they use some of those pseudo-anglicisms thinking that they're actual English words.
Yes, they like to do it. Most of them know that "handy" has a different meaning in English (even learners of German are taught not to use it in English that way), so they avoid using it for "mobile phone / cell phone". However, they have no qualms about using "beamer" in an English context. Frankly, I didn't know what the hell it was when I first heard the word. They look askance at me and asked: "You don't really speak English, do you?"
Benjamin wrote:
What does amaze me though is how one German girl I know seems to speak absolutely perfect English, even though she's only 18 and had never been in a natively English-speaking environment until two weeks ago.
In every way (pronunciation, grammar etc.)?
Benjamin wrote:
She's studying English Literature, French and Linguistics — and still seems to be better than most people here. I'm not sure that I'd have been able to cope so well if I'd gone to a French-speaking university, and I've been in natively French-speaking environments many times before.
Sometimes I also felt awkward in Germany because of my (mildly speaking) imperfect command of the language. Especially when I had a presentation at a rhetorics seminar. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
What does amaze me though is how one German girl I know seems to speak absolutely perfect English, even though she's only 18 and had never been in a natively English-speaking environment until two weeks ago.
In every way (pronunciation, grammar etc.)?
I can tell that she's not a native English speaker, and she does sound slightly German, but I essentially cannot find any fault with her English. If she'd told me that she was from, say, the Falkland Islands (i.e. somewhere that speaks an English dialect which I've never heard before), then I'd probably have believed her. She basically speaks English to the level now that I'd hope to be able to speak French and German after studying them at university for five years.
As for me, for some reason some people have said that I sound as though I'm from somewhere like Morningside, which is an extremely exclusive area of Edinburgh. No-one seems able to place my dialect though — people have made suggestions ranging from Kent to Aberdeen, and everyone is always very surprised when I tell them that I'm actually from Birmingham.
As for me, for some reason some people have said that I sound as though I'm from somewhere like Morningside, which is an extremely exclusive area of Edinburgh. No-one seems able to place my dialect though — people have made suggestions ranging from Kent to Aberdeen, and everyone is always very surprised when I tell them that I'm actually from Birmingham.
Well, that's the 'odium' of speaking RP. No-one can place you. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Well, that's the 'odium' of speaking RP. No-one can place you.
I actually think that some of my vowels have become slightly more 'Scottish' since I've been here. That's the other thing about speaking RP — I'll never assimilate into the dialect spoken by many of the older people I hear walking around here, but my 'Birmingham RP' can easily become 'Scottish RP' by subconsciously adopting some of the characteristics of the speech of others around me.
Like, one of the linguistics lecturers here believes she speaks 'Standard Southern British English', whereas I'd say that she actually speaks 'Scottish RP'. I don't know where she's originally from though.
Ach man könnte sagen da ist ein ständiges Kommen und gehen. Im Moment sind Anglizismen in den Medien sehr präsent, ABER es gibt viele Studien, die belegen, dass ein Großteil der Bevölkerung die Anglizismen nicht oder falsch versteht.
C'est clair. D'autant qu'il faut relativiser : la langue allemande a toujours été trčs hospitaličre avec ses voisines. Rien que de trčs normal. La routine, quoi...
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