Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: Does anyone look at the pronunciations in dictionaries?
Specifically, American English dictionaries? Anyone notice how most people don't talk the way the dictionary says? Look these words up if you don't believe me.
According to most American dictionaries...
Words like "talk," "thought," and so on are supposed to have the same vowel as "north." The word "talk" is usually written as /tôk/ while "torque" is the same thing plus an r: /tôrk/.
What JC Wells calls the CLOTH words: "cloth," "loss," "off," and, yes, "coffee," can either have the same vowel as "thought" or "lot." In every American dictionary, the "thought" vowel is usually listed first. For example "cross" is written /krôs/.
Dictionaries can't agree on the preferable pronunciation of "on." In most dictionaries it gives two pronunciations (one with the "lot" vowel, the other with the "thought" vowel) and either one could be first. In some older dictionaries, it is only listed with the "lot" vowel.
"Marry," "carry," "arrow," and such are usually listed with the same vowel as "cat." Most dictionaries only give that pronunciation and no other. Of course, most Americans don't really talk that way and have no idea anyone does at all. I think I've seen one that had two different pronunciations, though.
In words that start with "wh" apparently we're supposed to pronounce the h. For example, in one dictionary, "why" is written /hwī/. Newer dictionaries give two pronunciations, one with the H and one without, but the one with the H always comes first.
Finally, "dew" and "do" are supposed to be different. Look up "new" in an American dictionary, and the first--and possibly the only--pronunciation will look something like /nyoo/.
So am I the first person who has ever noticed this? I didn't bother to pay much attention until I was looking in the Al-Mawrid English-to-Arabic dictionary which lists pronunciations for the English words which, the dictionary claims, are from the American College Dictionary. I thought something was up when the word "horse" was written /hôrs/ (same as in "thought") but "hoarse" was written /hōrs/ (same as in "home"). Fortunately, every other dictionary has them written both with the same vowel.
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Does anyone look at the pronunciations in dictionaries?
Yes, I am the kind of person who loves to look at dictionary pronunciations.
Bashar wrote:
Specifically, American English dictionaries? Anyone notice how most people don't talk the way the dictionary says? Look these words up if you don't believe me.
I agree, I've noticed that too.
Quote:
Words like "talk," "thought," and so on are supposed to have the same vowel as "north." The word "talk" is usually written as /tôk/ while "torque" is the same thing plus an r: /tôrk/.
Yeah, I think that's a mistake. Very few Americans outside of the NYC area use the same vowel quality in "talk" and "torque". I prefer to use [Q:] for the "thought" vowel in unmerged American speech.
Quote:
What JC Wells calls the CLOTH words: "cloth," "loss," "off," and, yes, "coffee," can either have the same vowel as "thought" or "lot." In every American dictionary, the "thought" vowel is usually listed first. For example "cross" is written /krôs/.
That makes sense, because I have the impression that most unmerged Americans prefer the "thought" vowel in those words.
Quote:
Dictionaries can't agree on the preferable pronunciation of "on." In most dictionaries it gives two pronunciations (one with the "lot" vowel, the other with the "thought" vowel) and either one could be first. In some older dictionaries, it is only listed with the "lot" vowel.
Yeah, I think unmerged Americans are rather evenly split here.
Quote:
"Marry," "carry," "arrow," and such are usually listed with the same vowel as "cat." Most dictionaries only give that pronunciation and no other. Of course, most Americans don't really talk that way and have no idea anyone does at all. I think I've seen one that had two different pronunciations, though.
I agree that that's a mistake, because the merged pronunciations are strongly predominant in the US. But I think they should list the unmerged pronunciations as secondary, for those of us in the Northeast and the South who maintain the distinction.
But I think dictionaries are becoming more progressive about this anyway. m-w.com gives the merged pronunciation first, and my paperback Merriam Webster dictionary gives only the merged pronunciation.
Quote:
In words that start with "wh" apparently we're supposed to pronounce the h. For example, in one dictionary, "why" is written /hwī/. Newer dictionaries give two pronunciations, one with the H and one without, but the one with the H always comes first.
Yep, most of them seem to list the unmerged pronunciations first. I think that doesn't make sense, though, because the distinction is basically extinct outside of some pockets in the South.
Quote:
Finally, "dew" and "do" are supposed to be different. Look up "new" in an American dictionary, and the first--and possibly the only--pronunciation will look something like /nyoo/.
In older dictionaries yeah, but m-w.com and my paperback both list the yod-dropping pronunciation first.
Quote:
I thought something was up when the word "horse" was written /hôrs/ (same as in "thought") but "hoarse" was written /hōrs/ (same as in "home"). Fortunately, every other dictionary has them written both with the same vowel.
Yes, newer dictionaries tend to give the merged pronunciation first or alone, but I've seen a lot of older ones that give only the unmerged pronunciation. Again nonsensical, because the distinction is basically extinct aside from a few New Englanders and Southerners.
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So am I the first person who has ever noticed this?
No, you're not alone. I started to take a real interest in this kind of stuff during high school, when I acquired my fascination with languages. Nowadays I flip through every dictionary that I encounter, checking to see how they treat key words like the ones you've discussed.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Does anyone look at the pronunciations in dictionaries?
Lazar wrote:
Quote:
In words that start with "wh" apparently we're supposed to pronounce the h. For example, in one dictionary, "why" is written /hwī/. Newer dictionaries give two pronunciations, one with the H and one without, but the one with the H always comes first.
Yep, most of them seem to list the unmerged pronunciations first. I think that doesn't make sense, though, because the distinction is basically extinct outside of some pockets in the South.
And one nearly extinct San Franciscan.
Quote:
Quote:
Finally, "dew" and "do" are supposed to be different. Look up "new" in an American dictionary, and the first--and possibly the only--pronunciation will look something like /nyoo/.
In older dictionaries yeah, but m-w.com and my paperback both list the yod-dropping pronunciation first.
I'm all for languages evolving, but I'm sorry to see this distinction go. I wouldn't want to walk through the grass early in the morning and stoop down to catch a bit of doo on my fingers.
Oh, and the only time I check the pronunciation of a word in a dictionary is when it's a word that I don't know how to pronounce.
I never use the dictionaries as a pronunciation guide. Come to think of it, I hardly use them at all. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I often use them to check the pronunciation but I know that most words aren't pronounced *exactly* the same way in real life, since dictionaries usually contain broad transcriptions (and that of RP or GA).
Besides, I often check the prepositions because I tend to get them wrong. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
I usually check dictionary pronunciations only for words I don't know well or never have a reason to say out loud -- and then I'm usually like, Damn, THAT'S the way you're supposed to say it? I've been saying it wrong all this time?
I don't really check the common words. I already know how to say them, and I never know what all those little marks over the letters are supposed to mean, anyway!
But Deborah, I've always said dew and doo the same way -- I guess I should just avoid grass altogether, since I never know which I'm going to get! _________________ An apple a day....
I have to check pronounciation of a word from time to time in a dictionary. For example with a new word or at least to be sure I would not pronounce a word in a wrong way. Honestly English is the most difficult language for me to pronounce among Germanic languages I'm able to speak.
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I started to take a real interest in this kind of stuff during high school, when I acquired my fascination with languages. Nowadays I flip through every dictionary that I encounter, checking to see how they treat key words like the ones you've discussed.
You add approximant variety to the landscape of California.
