Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Italian: In between Spanish and French?
I see Italian as being in between Spanish and French. In some ways, it is more similar to French, and in other ways, it is more similar to Spanish. Usually, if a word in Italian is not the same as the Spanish equivalent, then you can find it in French, or the same applies when a word is not shared by Italian and French, when you can usually find it in Spanish. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
If you consider different latin roots for the same word. Italian shares more common roots with French than with Spanish which has developed closer to Portuguese.
Agree with Didier, but I have personal experience with all three languages and let me say that when I only knew Spanish I was hard-pressed to really decipher French. When I started Italian it really opened up the doors to the French language...
I agree with you that French and Italian share many features that spanish doesn't, in grammar and also in the very basic vocabulary:
many "core" verbs are shared with french and Italian but not spanish:
fare/faire / hacer
mettre/mettere / poner
arriver/arrivare / llegar
parler/parlare / hablar
dire/dire / decir
avoir/avere / tener
Chercher/cercare / buscar
Partir/partire / andarse
prendre/prendere / tomar
but also a lot of very basic words
alors/allora / entonces
soeur/sorella / hermana
encore/ancora / ademas
matin/mattina / manana
coeur/cuore / corazon
soir/sera / tarde
toutes/tutte / todas
trop/ troppo / demasiado
fils/figlio / hijo
etc.
But it is also true that Italian and Spanish share much in prononciation, with "o" and "a" endings and maybe a more conservative writing and spelling to latin.
And it is also true that many gramatical words and also other are often completly similar between french and spanish while writed quite differently in Italian. It gives the fact it is almost possible to write sentences that could be both french and Spanish. It would be much harder to do the same between french and Italian. even if it is gramatically approximative:
such as: "un avion va de Paris a Berlin, tu seras bien entre la grande amante de la region impressionante. tu vas sentir
un desastre impossible. tu iras a la limite de la suave region de Madrid; etc "
the following very basic words are the same in both languages (without taking account of some accents):
de, la, que, se, entre, un, bien, a, me, tu, si, etc.
And also, the Spanish tener is effectively a cognate of the French tenir, even though the usage is slightly different. Moreover, the French avoir is a cognate of the Spanish haber.
Not really Benjamin, the verb "haber" in Spanish is only auxilliary verb "avoir".
fr "avoir", it "avere" and sp "tener" is not the auxilliary but the verb that means to have in the meaning "to possess/to hold". In that meaning the spanish version is tener, which is completly different from french and Italian ones.
Sorry but I have to nitpick that list some more...
Dire, dire, and decir all come from the same Latin verb (dicere).
Fare, faire, and hacer all come from the same Latin verb (facere). The thing there is, when Spanish first evolved from Latin a lot of inital f's got dropped and replaced with silent h's. Hacer is one example; there's also...
OK, looking back I see someone already pointed this out, but since I've already typed this stuff up I may as well go on...
Anyway, as Lazar already mentioned fils/figlio/hijo is another example of the f-dropping, also faim/hambre (I don't know the Italian word), and femme/femina/hembra. I also know that hablar is a cognate with Portuguese falar.
Agree that many are cognates, but it terms of lay speakers, I think fab is pointing out how recognizable things are. When I only knew Spanish, I never made the connection from hijo to fils. I can actually see it now because of Italian figlio.
And he does have a point about avoir/avere/tener. It was a big difference when I was learning Italian that I had to get my head around.
Tiffant has understood me correctly. I didn't try to claim than the Spanish was not based on the same roots, but that in many common sentences the french ans Italian forms are more similar and the as Tiffany points out the connexion is more obvious: ex (sorry if my italian is not perfect)
Toutes les filles ont trop mangé, elles vont avoir encore faim.
Tutte les figlie hanno troppo mangiato, lei vanno avere ancora fame.
Todas las hijas han comido demasiado, todavía van a tener hambre.
Not really Benjamin, the verb "haber" in Spanish is only auxilliary verb "avoir".
They're still cognates, even though the usage is not completely identical.
fab wrote:
fr "avoir", it "avere" and sp "tener" is not the auxilliary but the verb that means to have in the meaning "to possess/to hold". In that meaning the spanish version is tener, which is completly different from french and Italian ones.
I don't think it's completely different. I can think of many cases when writing French I've used tenir as a synonym for avoir in order to avoid repeating avoir over an over again. Of course, they're not completely interchangeable in all cases, but there are cases where the meaning is similar enough that either could be used.
Cognates are words are words of common origin, but they do not have to have exactly the same meaning or usage. I can think of a huge number of words like this between English and German. For example, the English to starve is cognate to the German sterben, but sterben actually translates into English as to die — it's kind of similar, but not exactly the same. Even words which appear to have essentially the same meaning may have slightly different connotations or usages in certain circumstances — there are very subtle differences between the English house and the German Haus for example. And even then, I'm seeing house from a British perspective — what I associate with house probably isn't exactly the same as what someone from Alaska or Singapore would associate with it.
They're still cognates, even though the usage is not completely identical
No, "haber" in spanish has a complete different usuage and meaning than
"avoir/avere" when used in the sence "to possess". Of course "haber" is etymologicaly linked to avoir/avere, but it canno't at all be used like them in that meaning. what I wanted to say is that in french and Italian you would say a very similar thing to say it with avoir/avere while in spanish they should necessary use "tener", which would make the sentence unintelligible at the same level.
Ex. vous avez un frère / (voi) avete un fratello / teneis un hermano
but of course all three share the same latin origins.
[quote] don't think it's completely different.
Quote:
I can think of many cases when writing French I've used tenir as a synonym for avoir in order to avoid repeating avoir over an over again. Of course, they're not completely interchangeable in all cases, but there are cases where the meaning is similar enough that either could be used.
No, it's wrong. In french avoir and tenir are not interchangeable, they are completly different verbs. you can't say "je tiens une maison", etc.
"tener" is the spanish for "avoir", but not for "tenir". "hé un amigo" doesn't mean "j'ai un ami", while in Italian "ho un amico" do.
No, "haber" in spanish has a complete different usuage and meaning than
"avoir/avere" when used in the sence "to possess". Of course "haber" is etymologicaly linked to avoir/avere, but it canno't at all be used like them in that meaning. what I wanted to say is that in french and Italian you would say a very similar thing to say it with avoir/avere while in spanish they should necessary use "tener", which would make the sentence unintelligible at the same level.
As I explained, cognates do not have to have to exactly the same meaning or usage.
fab wrote:
No, it's wrong. In french avoir and tenir are not interchangeable, they are completly different verbs. you can't say "je tiens une maison", etc.
"tener" is the spanish for "avoir", but not for "tenir". "hé un amigo" doesn't mean "j'ai un ami", while in Italian "ho un amico" do.
I am fully aware of this. As I've explained, it doesn't have to be completely interchangeable of exactly the same. To bring to to a very basically level, « je tiens une pomme » is very similar to « j'ai une pomme », even though the meaning is not identical — in the sense that the former implies the latter, but the reverse is not necessarily the case.
Yes Benjamin, they are cognates, but you have to ask yourself if lay speakers are going to make the connection you have. I certainly didn't. Now that I know more about all three languages, it is easy to see, but that doesn't always translate to a person that knows one and not the other. "Tengo hambre" did not look like "Ho fame" to me.
And I totally would not have made the connection between "sterben" and "starve" if you had not told me. The point I think fab is trying to make (and I agree with) is whether or not you can just quickly make the connection without having to be told. To go from "faire" to "fare", the connection is almost instantaneous. To go from "hacer" to either "faire" or "fare" is much more difficult. I now know that hacer comes from the same root and in times long past, "facere" (the root) morphed to "hacere" and then to "hacer", but I didn't know that without in-depth study. A Spanish-speaker reading a French or Italian newspaper isn't doing that research while he is trying to read!
I am not going to deny that there are many recognizable words period within these three languages (hell, they are all descended from Latin), but I can't deny what I know to be true: I could read very little French whilst I only knew Spanish. With Italian, so much more recognition has taken place.
And you were really close with your Italian fab. The grammatically correct phrase is:
"Tutte le figlie hanno mangiato troppo, loro vanno ad avere ancora fame." However, I'm not totally sure what "loro vanno ad avere ancora fame" means. Sounds like a very odd way of saying that they are still hungry.
I am fully aware of this. As I've explained, it doesn't have to be completely interchangeable of exactly the same. To bring to to a very basically level, « je tiens une pomme » is very similar to « j'ai une pomme », even though the meaning is not identical — in the sense that the former implies the latter, but the reverse is not necessarily the case.
what you didn't understood is that in the exemple I gave (avoir/avere/tener) the verb "tener" is not a cognate with the two others - it means the same thing, but doesn't derive from the same word. It just happends that french and Italian use also this word as auxilliary (not really as a true verb, but only a meaningless gramatical element that serve to make pomposed past tense), in this case "avoir/avere/haber" are clearly cognates - but that was not in that meaning I was speaking about, I wans't speaking of the auxilliary but as the verb that means "to possess". A spanish-speaking person that has never studied Italian or French has no possibility to know that "avoir/avere" are not just auxilliaries but also mean "tener" - for him they are completly different words: "tener" has one meaning, and "haber" is the auxilliary. "avere fame" doesn't give him any clue about the meaning, and he would hardly guess that "avere" might also means "tener", while for a french-speaker it is as clear as water. It is not that the meaning is "not completly identical" as you said but that is completly different in that case.
I wasn't actually trying to claim that french and Italian are always similar while Spanish would be appart. That was on that particular point of view; basic grammar and vocabulary. My point is that all three have closer ties with another with one speacific point of view:
-Italian and spanish= phonetics, prononciation, o/a endings
-Italian and french= vocabulary, basic usual verbs
-French and Spanish= orthography
for the third I'll explain: I often notice in a lot of words, especiall very basic usual ones that are all similar in sp/fr/it have often more similar orthography in french and spanish than in Italian.
ex: (fr/es/it) que/que/che de/de/di si/si/se me/me/mi en/en/in
entre/entre/tra se/se/si elle/ella/lei les/las/le....
what you didn't understood is that in the exemple I gave (avoir/avere/tener) the verb "tener" is not a cognate with the two others - it means the same thing, but doesn't derive from the same word. It just happends that french and Italian use also this word as auxilliary (not really as a true verb, but only a meaningless gramatical element that serve to make pomposed past tense), in this case "avoir/avere/haber" are clearly cognates - but that was not in that meaning I was speaking about, I wans't speaking of the auxilliary but as the verb that means "to possess".
Sorry, but you still don't seem to understand what cognates are. Do I need to explain it again, or perhaps explain it in French?
Of course the Spanish tener is not a cognate of the French avoir — but no-one claimed that.
fab wrote:
A spanish-speaking person that has never studied Italian or French has no possibility to know that "avoir/avere" are not just auxilliaries but also mean "tener" - for him they are completly different words: "tener" has one meaning, and "haber" is the auxilliary. "avere fame" doesn't give him any clue about the meaning, and he would hardly guess that "avere" might also means "tener", while for a french-speaker it is as clear as water.
Of course. But that wasn't what I was talking about.
fab wrote:
It is not that the meaning is "not completly identical" as you said but that is completly different in that case.
As you say, it is different in that particular case. But that doesn't change the fact that avoir is cognate to haber. Heck, the English dish is cognate to the German Tisch, even though Tisch translates into English (or French) as table — not the same meaning, but kind of related nonetheless.
Benjamin, I think if your only point was to show that there are a lot of cognates in all three languages, no one disagrees. Were you getting at something more? Because if so, I think I'm missing it.
In this case, the usage as well as spelling differences in the cognates are what will fool learners - they are false friends that serve only to confuse at this stage - that is my only point.
As Tiffany did, I too failed to see your goal in this discussion, the question has never been if the words in question have or not cognates in the two others. If by cognate you mean that there is somewhere a word, even with a different meaning, with same origin, then 100% of three languages are completly similar. It was not the question.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
